Well, as far as this site, it’s just a matter of getting two established providers to vouch that they’ve seen you as a client, behind closed doors, and you’re an established hobbyist here, regardless how often you wanna hobby or how many more providers you wanna see. It shows everyone you’re legit.👍🏾👍🏾Originally Posted by deesmooth
THIS 👆🏾👆🏾👆🏾👆🏾
And this 👆🏾👆🏾👆🏾👆🏾
Fully vaxxed & boosted, mature, professional, Black male.
P411 Lifetime Member with 70+ Okays.
Admirer of women in all their shapes, colours and sizes, with a preference for mature GFE providers.
It's not race motivated if someone doesn't have a physical attraction to AA, or Asians, or Fat girls, or tall girls, or mature ..... I see "in search of" hobbyist looking for a particular type & it doesn't upset me. Models aren't chosen for certain jobs they audition for .......
Entitlement masked in the excuse of racism is a card used too often in a modern world of thriving AA's that are famous, rich, intelligent and world leaders.
Last edited by Universal; 06-30-2019 at 06:55 PM.
So, if it is not racism per MG’s definition (which is arguably flawed), it is most certainly prejudice.
As far the special subset argument: I agree; it SHOULD be a community that welcomes all types of bodies, ages, disabilities, fetishes, etc. For those of us who are otherwise undesirable, we turn to the hobby. That’s kind of the foundation: girls are supposed to be blind to the superficial and see the person within.
By the way, I’m liking how academically stimulating and mature this conversation is, unlike many of its predecessors have been. Conversations like this are how society changes and evolves.
Last edited by 3daygetaway; 06-30-2019 at 06:49 PM.
I don't get chosen by men that are attracted to spinners, you don't hear me using discrimination as an excuse and in the real world I don't get paid the same wages as a man.
Discrimination happens to everyone. Don't exclude discrimination to just one race, it happens to everyone for many different reasons
True, discrimination happens to everyone. But the levels of discrimination that you and I endure as white people is nowhere near that endured by people of color. Nowhere near!
We all have the freedom here to choose those with whom we want to do business, but if that freedom is racially influenced, then we must accept that we are racist to some degree. And we all are. If we can learn from that, then maybe we can change our attitudes and behavior and begin to mold a better world. Love is all we need.
James
Loving life in Austin
It depends on what you define as prejudice 3day. We have come to equate prejudice with an exact form of racism. That's the part that is really wrong.
First of all prejudice is something we all experience, no matter our race, age, intelligence, body type, voice, etc....
Prejudice, strictly speaking, is a preconceived notion that is not based on prior experiences. In fact, prejudice in and of itself does not always have a negative connotation.
Example: "the boy was prejudice of the deep end of the pool".
He is prejudice of it because he has no experience with it or is scared he might drown, though he has no personal prior experience. It is not a bad thing in this light. He's essentially "leery" in that context.
Using only the word prejudice to define racism is not the best definition or way to use it.
The best definition of racism is something like this:
"belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races".
Given the above, I'd say it doesn't mean they are necessarily racist (granted they could be). In fact, it doesn't even have to mean they are prejudice.
However, I agree with you that prejudice is a lot more likely. It doesn't have to be prejudice though. Maybe they do have experiences, prior factual information, friends who experience it, which makes them state that particular "preference".
For example, maybe a girl says she doesn't want to see men over 60. Maybe she says this because she has had too many encounters where they can't get it up, take too long, or they want a second shot but it can almost never happen and they have trouble ending the session. Maybe they are even doing it to spare the awkward feeling of having to push an old man out the door b/c he can't get it up or finish round two and she has so graciously given him an extra half hour already. In this case she isn't really being "prejudice". She is just being highly preferential.
Even if she doesn't want to see people of a certain body type, just as you might not want to, does that mean she is prejudice? Or that you are? No. Not necessarily. You just prefer that for an intimate encounter. Maybe you have no other prejudicial or discriminatory behavior toward heavy people (just an example). Maybe your very best friend is morbidly obese. Would you have sex with him? Oh, and you are a man (full on heterosexual only man). So now you are not only prejudice to fat men but you are also homophobic???
They are two different things. It's a thin rope indeed. But intimacy is not the same business as serving beers to people. All people should be able to walk through that door to engage your business. Again, the hobby world is a special edge case where there is extreme intimacy/sex involved. This naturally has highly preferential tendencies. That does not necessarily connote prejudice and certainly not necessarily racism.
Because of all this and these borderline issues I'd say the better way to go as a woman would be to just not post those preferences in ads. Gather it on the phone, during your screening, whatever....
^ Exactly.
BTW you look sexy AF to me
-mg
Last edited by mathguy; 06-30-2019 at 08:07 PM. Reason: Added Universal's quote
I agree that no one in this business should be pressured to do anything they don't want to do. We can all find ways to have the kind of fun we desire within the parameters that are acceptable to both parties, and it is or should be an individual choice in every case.
But I think that a lot of people are so polarized in this day and age that they read things into it that were never there.
For example, the OP asked but did not demand to be told why providers have a no AA policy. I didn't see anything in his writing that led me to believe he was coercing an answer out of anyone, and there were several people who seemed very offended by the question being posted at all. It probably comes off to people in a different way than they intended.
I posted a thread asking for ladies who wish to self report that they welcome respectful gentlemen of all ethnicities, and I was immediately lambasted for race-baiting and divisiveness. I just thought it would be helpful for people to have a go-to list so that they don't have to get their soul hurt every time they see the no-AA comment, as one person mentioned. I never intended to start a discussion about the pros and cons, and I was very specific that people can express their opinion in other threads.
One thing that providers sometimes screen for is the ability to read and follow directions. So what was supposed to be a list of ethnic-friendly providers has now also turned into a list of people who do not respect the boundaries of others.
So be it. Karma is a bitch sometimes.
Last edited by MarkWatney; 06-30-2019 at 08:51 PM.
I totally agree with your summary 1000%, I've even asked providers do they like professional Tiger Woods type black guys. They still say no.
I've wondered why I have not seen ads turning down midgets, amputees, men over 80 or something that may be unattractive. Nope. Something about AA they just don't like. Gladly we have laws that do not allow discrimination or else you would see signs at restaurants, hotels, hospitals etc etc saying "no AA". I believe every race has beautiful people, but, some people don't see the world the same.
Sometimes, you gotta pay to play....
If a client is going to pay for a particular service and the service provider is not able to provide the requested service for any reason; I appreciated being made aware up front. In the course of my research and lurking if I come across a provider that I determine not to be a good fit or not AA friendly...I click the ignore link and move on. Every living thing has some form of explicit or implicit bias. Economics and counter-stereotypical exemplars are an excellent way launch an effective fight against racism (explicit or implicit). Even racists providers and admirers have a right to their opinion, control their bodies and earn a living. Being an equal opportunity provider is probable to make earning a living alot easier in most cases but not all. From my vantage point being an equal opportunity provider makes hobby life a little easier for everybody......except racists. Can't we all just try to love and respect each other and get along. I'm done now!
"Love all, Trust few and Do harm to none" - William Shakespeare
I prefer the company of a lady that is "AA" friendly.
Bons Temps Rouler!
It is most likely a form of racism but you have to respect ppls boundaries.
Tbh I find it annoying black guys whine about this.
Just avoid ladies who advertise no AA. When you’re booking, say you’re black and if she wants to see you she will, if she doesn’t, you just saved yourself money time and disappointment.
No need to question if these ladies are discriminating against you when it’s blatantly obvious they are.
I didn’t know I needed to put melanin friendly in my ads but I most certainly will be going this now.
“don’t be dumb/blind, in your ear like a radio”
EXACTLY WHAT SHE SAID..............
I don't have time to complain that more women are discriminated against in the entire world on some
many different levels but we suck it up and make the best with a thankful attitude.
The world owes us nothing
Hi hun I promise I'm not picking on you with this quote. I just wanted to use it b/c you are yourself a beautiful AA woman and it will allow me to display how silly the idea is that this is *simply* racism. I'll admit that it could have some touch of it or that it was born of it. However, the idea of a sexual preference is not racism in and of itself, nor is it necessarily prejudice.
For example, you yourself are AA. You seem to be fine with seeing black men from your post I gather, yes? BUT.... count how many AA girls themselves (AA girls!) put the same damn "No AA" policy crap in their ads!? In fact, I will go out on a limb here and say there is a higher percentage of black girls who say "No AA" than there are caucasian, asian, or latina girls. That's anecdotal, I didn't do some study of it, but based on my recollection, it seems INCREDIBLY common that black girls, at an ALARMINGLY HIGH RATE, put this "No AA" disclaimer in their own ads. What?!? So basically all these black girls are racist toward black men? Huh....wha????
It doesn't make sense. Sure you could argue there are more white and latina girls than there are black girls but I'm talking about the "percentage" of them that put those disclaimers in their ads. It's ALARMINGLY high for black girls. Why?? Black on black racism??? Come on.
My hypothesis is that it's a combination of at least *some* of the following things:
1-3 below are all related, 4 is a bit unrelated to the prior 3 but it could be a mix of all these reasons
1. Women have learned, particularly black girls, that for some reason, cultural or otherwise (nothing to do with simply "being a black man" as if you are inferior or not good looking - no no no), that black men are not as respectful, or they badger, have higher rates of antagonizing, intimidating, and various other things. So those women started putting that disclaimer as a risk mitigating factor in their ads. In fact it probably started by black girls b/c in the beginning it was mostly black girls seeing black guys (back in the earlier days - simply b/c of the geo-location/demographics/ease of access).
2. In time other women began following these disclaimers.
Do you realize how many women put these things in their ads and they probably have NO IDEA why they are doing it? It's pack mentality. Following the herd. They are just some young scared girl, entering this new hobby world, she sees lots of ads that say "No AA" (which as irony would have it, was started by a variety or handful of BLACK GIRLS!?), and she goes "hmmm, well jeez, I guess I should do the same, that's scary". Maybe they aren't even young. Maybe they were at one time and have always just kept this policy. Or maybe they are older but they are new and just don't know why it's common to see it but err on the side of "safety" (in their mind) and put the disclaimer up. Not even really knowing why. I would be willing to bet you that SOOOOO many of the new girls, younger or older, don't even know why they are putting it in there. They just do it b/c it's what they see and go with what appears to be the "safer" path. I'll even bet many of them eventually remove it once their fears subside and they learn more about the industry, know more girls, learn that it's not so bad, that there is really nothing about black guys that makes them hateful, intimidating, etc...
3. The above #2 item led to a vicious cycle of girls who started putting up ads over the years with these disclaimers which led to the extreme pervasiveness of this particular "No AA" policy. The joke of it all is that likely many of the girls don't even know why they do it.
4. This is the one that is at least somewhat unrelated to the above items. There might exist a group of women who had bad experiences with black men, whether they are black, white, latina, girls. Again, like #3 above, due to these "bad" experiences, which maybe seem to happen at a slightly higher rate than with other races (for whatever reason), we see a similar vicious cycle and pervasiveness of this policy appear throughout many ads over a number of years. In time no one really knows why it has become so ubiquitous. Not even the girls themselves.
It's just a little absurd to think that, arguably, 70-80+% of black girls are racist toward black men. That's crazy. There is obviously some other driving factor. It may be cultural. It's also a herd and "newbie" mentality after that. And basically a combination of the 3 or 4 items I listed above most likely, with a few bad experiences among girls (probably a lot of them black girls in the beginning) which led to this idea that black men are not as "nice" to women.
There could be some other aspects at play, mostly cultural. I have one or two other ideas but I will not put that here b/c I don't think they are very relevant and I think even if they are valid they bleed back over into the 3-4 items I listed above. I also don't want to start any BS about racism.
This is not a racist issue. This is a pervasive issue that built up over years and years and likely started by black women themselves. I agree it looks that way on the surface. I do agree about that.
I've said many, many times it looks so much that way (quite racist) that I would advise all women to stop posting "No AA" (or anything else for that matter) in their ads and just gather it privately. It will serve you better. You probably lose prospective clients just b/c they see the ad (whatever your "policy" is) and they think you are a bigot; whether you are or not - or they are afraid you will discriminate against their race or their features. The best marketing policy is to *not* put that in your ad.
I even posted about how horribly racist it appears in an older thread. I have had time to fully digest it, evaluate it, ponder the implications, and I cannot reconcile that this is racism, largely on the basis that such a profoundly high percentage of black girls will not see black men. That doesn't strike you as odd? If this were simple racism? Why is it 6-8 out of ten black women who won't see black men but only 2-3 (4 at most) out of 10 white/latina/asian women that won't see black men? Yet we are saying this is just plain 'ol racism? Nah.
-mg
I've seen a few ads where they won't see someone over the age of 50 or 60. I also saw an ad stating she wouldn't see anyone overweight. Personally I want to see someone who is comfortable around me as those sessions seem to be the best. This is a highly personalized business so being clear on ones likes and preferences up front (by both parties) to me makes the best sense.
I don’t ever get the feeling you’re the type to pick on us ladies but I appreciate your preface.
I made sure to say “most likely a form”.
I agree with the pack mentality thing and most everything you said.
I would say black girls who say no AA are either just doing it bc that’s what they see others doing, have pimp who won’t let them, or are just as prejudice as white women with the no AA policy. I’ve never had a black friend in this who has had the no AA policy but there’s got to be self-hating black women out there. Sad. There are also white women who do see black men but if you’ve got to know them, say sneak racist shit all the time.
Personally I don’t take non cash gifts from young Indian men bc 2 burned me. I had to pass on one established young Indian man this week bc it was late and he wouldn’t get cash. Another who I declined last week inquired again this week and begrudgingly went to he atm. Another was on an alerts list for doing a charge back and I just didn’t answer (idk man, the young Indians love me I guess). Anyway, I don’t discriminate and choose not to see any young/Indians.
I renounce my statement about how it’s annoying black men always bring this up bc the consensus over time is becoming the no AA policy is tacky. Again we have to respect ppls hard boundaries but at least the group thinkers might lay off the stereotyping and prejudice.
I hear lots of women say they won’t see Middle Eastern or Indian Men but I don’t see them blatantly advertising it. Outright denying black men publicly is easy for ladies to do for some reason. There are white hobbyists who say they won’t see ladies who see black clients. Talk about overstepping boundaries... but I guess that discussion is for another time.
Hi hun I promise I'm not picking on you with this quote. I just wanted to use it b/c you are yourself a beautiful AA woman and it will allow me to display how silly the idea is that this is *simply* racism. I'll admit that it could have some touch of it or that it was born of it. However, the idea of a sexual preference is not racism in and of itself, nor is it necessarily prejudice.
For example, you yourself are AA. You seem to be fine with seeing black men from your post I gather, yes? BUT.... count how many AA girls themselves (AA girls!) put the same damn "No AA" policy crap in their ads!? In fact, I will go out on a limb here and say there is a higher percentage of black girls who say "No AA" than there are caucasian, asian, or latina girls. That's anecdotal, I didn't do some study of it, but based on my recollection, it seems INCREDIBLY common that black girls, at an ALARMINGLY HIGH RATE, put this "No AA" disclaimer in their own ads. What?!? So basically all these black girls are racist toward black men? Huh....wha????
It doesn't make sense. Sure you could argue there are more white and latina girls than there are black girls but I'm talking about the "percentage" of them that put those disclaimers in their ads. It's ALARMINGLY high for black girls. Why?? Black on black racism??? Come on.
My hypothesis is that it's a combination of at least *some* of the following things:
1-3 below are all related, 4 is a bit unrelated to the prior 3 but it could be a mix of all these reasons
1. Women have learned, particularly black girls, that for some reason, cultural or otherwise (nothing to do with simply "being a black man" as if you are inferior or not good looking - no no no), that black men are not as respectful, or they badger, have higher rates of antagonizing, intimidating, and various other things. So those women started putting that disclaimer as a risk mitigating factor in their ads. In fact it probably started by black girls b/c in the beginning it was mostly black girls seeing black guys (back in the earlier days - simply b/c of the geo-location/demographics/ease of access).
2. In time other women began following these disclaimers.
Do you realize how many women put these things in their ads and they probably have NO IDEA why they are doing it? It's pack mentality. Following the herd. They are just some young scared girl, entering this new hobby world, she sees lots of ads that say "No AA" (which as irony would have it, was started by a variety or handful of BLACK GIRLS!?), and she goes "hmmm, well jeez, I guess I should do the same, that's scary". Maybe they aren't even young. Maybe they were at one time and have always just kept this policy. Or maybe they are older but they are new and just don't know why it's common to see it but err on the side of "safety" (in their mind) and put the disclaimer up. Not even really knowing why. I would be willing to bet you that SOOOOO many of the new girls, younger or older, don't even know why they are putting it in there. They just do it b/c it's what they see and go with what appears to be the "safer" path. I'll even bet many of them eventually remove it once their fears subside and they learn more about the industry, know more girls, learn that it's not so bad, that there is really nothing about black guys that makes them hateful, intimidating, etc...
3. The above #2 item led to a vicious cycle of girls who started putting up ads over the years with these disclaimers which led to the extreme pervasiveness of this particular "No AA" policy. The joke of it all is that likely many of the girls don't even know why they do it.
4. This is the one that is at least somewhat unrelated to the above items. There might exist a group of women who had bad experiences with black men, whether they are black, white, latina, girls. Again, like #3 above, due to these "bad" experiences, which maybe seem to happen at a slightly higher rate than with other races (for whatever reason), we see a similar vicious cycle and pervasiveness of this policy appear throughout many ads over a number of years. In time no one really knows why it has become so ubiquitous. Not even the girls themselves.
It's just a little absurd to think that, arguably, 70-80+% of black girls are racist toward black men. That's crazy. There is obviously some other driving factor. It may be cultural. It's also a herd and "newbie" mentality after that. And basically a combination of the 3 or 4 items I listed above most likely, with a few bad experiences among girls (probably a lot of them black girls in the beginning) which led to this idea that black men are not as "nice" to women.
There could be some other aspects at play, mostly cultural. I have one or two other ideas but I will not put that here b/c I don't think they are very relevant and I think even if they are valid they bleed back over into the 3-4 items I listed above. I also don't want to start any BS about racism.
This is not a racist issue. This is a pervasive issue that built up over years and years and likely started by black women themselves. I agree it looks that way on the surface. I do agree about that.
I've said many, many times it looks so much that way (quite racist) that I would advise all women to stop posting "No AA" (or anything else for that matter) in their ads and just gather it privately. It will serve you better. You probably lose prospective clients just b/c they see the ad (whatever your "policy" is) and they think you are a bigot; whether you are or not - or they are afraid you will discriminate against their race or their features. The best marketing policy is to *not* put that in your ad.
I even posted about how horribly racist it appears in an older thread. I have had time to fully digest it, evaluate it, ponder the implications, and I cannot reconcile that this is racism, largely on the basis that such a profoundly high percentage of black girls will not see black men. That doesn't strike you as odd? If this were simple racism? Why is it 6-8 out of ten black women who won't see black men but only 2-3 (4 at most) out of 10 white/latina/asian women that won't see black men? Yet we are saying this is just plain 'ol racism? Nah.
-mg
“don’t be dumb/blind, in your ear like a radio”
^^ Great reply my lovely!Thank you for the intelligent thoughtful response. And most of all for not seeing it as some snarky attack. I'd never do that. I have to applaud you for that b/c so many people can't do what you just did (like really).
The main reason for quoting you was simply that I wanted to display specific points which your quote nicely provided (and reminded me of).
Yep, people have to respect other people's boundaries. You're right too about the racist thing where girls will say they see men of a particular race but then say hateful or racist things behind their back. Unfortunately I think that's par for the course in this mixed up world and isn't exclusive to the hobby (sadly)
Great reply!
-mg
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