Are you funding the Border wall or ladders? THREAD CLOSED BY CK1942

[WellEndowed1911]

Because they are crossing the southern border by the thousands to tens of thousands daily...costing us 155 to 254 billion each and every year to make sure they are taken much better care then many, many, many of our own America Citizens. Let’s slow that entry number down and divert all that money saved to helping our own first and then helping others as we can.

Goofy nothing wrong with us agreeing to disagree, but I honestly don't think the wall will work the way you think it will.
First you figures of 155 to 254 billion hae been fact checked and proven to be very well inflated- the figure is closer to 50 billion. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy...he-u-s-economy and https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/don...ca-not-n950981
Also, if you really are serious about saving money and helping our own- How do you feel about the U.S cutting it's defense budget of $618 billion.
Please give me one valid reason why we spend 618 billion on defense when the next 7 countries China, Russia, Saudia Arabia, India, France, , U,K, and Japan-combined spend 578 billion? Does that not alarm you? However, when you talk to a republican about cutting defense they want to switch the subject. Do you ever wonder why a country like Iran is trying to build nukes? When they see the United States every year spending over half a trillion on military what signal does that send to other nations?

[Precious_b]

Easy to bypass a barrier.

What is more of a concern to me was when I was listening to the news this morning.
There are alot of countries putting up barriers on their borders. I was surprised how many countries.
Most all of them to bar refugees.

And the leader of our country is foaming at the mouth to get one up. By hook or by crook. Lying all the way about it (i.e. Mexico paying for it.)
I know a few of the above countries have these problems because of the USA messing with their affairs.
Long rant to the point: we shouldn't have to waste time/effort/money with such things IF we try to straighten out the situation that is causing these mass flights of people. It is always cheaper to fix the underlying (sp) cause of problems than to put a bandage on it.

And it is the decent thing to do.

*pb ramble finished*

[Goofy11]

Fair enough we will agree to disagree...

I would imagine our budget differences is largely due to the salary we pay our troops. We pay them in dollars not in cents as you know China, India, and most likely Russia do. The UK, Saudi and Japan are a fraction of the size of the US so you know their budgets are going to be lower. Plus we do a lot and pay a lot for the research and development which is costly but provides a huge advantage. Then we have the labor expenses to build our state of the art equipment like planes, ships and all the other weapons, etc. so that is another huge costs difference. Then in addition to that, we are expected to fund military actions abroad and defend pretty much the rest of the world, which by the way I am ok with provided they contribute to some degree. And then on top of all that we have to add in the inflated numbers to fund Area 51 and the other secret sites we don’t even know about. Also a well funded military means full and active bases in cities helping their economies...

I fully imagine Iran wants to build nukes to kill Americans with out hesitation or even a second thought as they freely and openly chant death to Americans and burn our flag...I believe that’s exactly what they are thinking regardless of our military budget.

I might be wrong here but I feel that if they were saying death to the Russians or Chinese that Iran would have already been squashed by either of those countries, as a clear and present danger to their people. America since becoming a super power has yet to enter a war to claim territory or resources for its own. Probably could be easily done, but that is not who we are, thank goodness. So for a whole country of Iran to be chanting and bill boarding death to America. I see us as pretty dang tolerant of that. Although our last person in charge gave them one heck of a chance by giving them a 155 billion cash midnight darkness top secret do not let the American People know cash fund to start on those nukes they want to use on us.

Maybe the numbers are inflated...but probably not. Each side has reports showing the numbers in their favor. But many reports show that it costs the American taxpayers 70k for each and every illegal immigrant each and every year (which by the way is way more than many Americans Citizens are able to earn a year) and there are 20 million illegal immigrants here today. And that is a low estimation. Plus thousands more are crossing every day. 70,000 x 20,000,000 = 1,400,000,000,000...so even with inflated numbers that you feel I shared, even those might be a little low...

In all honesty I would be willing to vote today to make all of the hard working illegal immigrants trying to better themselves and willing to assimilate to American ways and laws legal right away, today. Simply go to your local city hall and swear in...Immediately assign them a social security card along with a helpful pamphlet on local government and laws and let them earn a living and pay their bills and more importantly pay their taxes! However without even a second thought all those others here for other reasons and are depending or expecting or demanding the government to take care of them, they need to be sent home today. And we without question need to know who is coming across any of our borders...terroist, criminals and gang members need not apply.

All politicians switch the topic to avoid answering questions they do not want to discuss, it’s called a pivot. Heck Pelosi and Schumer kept interrupting the HS Secretary during the White House meeting the other day because they don’t want to hear what the true numbers on the boarder really are. So there’s that.

Good discussion thanks.

[Goofy11]

Easy to bypass a barrier.

I know a few of the above countries have these problems because of the USA messing with their affairs.
Long rant to the point: we shouldn't have to waste time/effort/money with such things IF we try to straighten out the situation that is causing these mass flights of people. It is always cheaper to fix the underlying (sp) cause of problems than to put a bandage on it.

And it is the decent thing to do.

*pb ramble finished*

This would be awesome if it would work, we have been trying this for decades giving foreign aid in the billions to countries to help them but it is not working for many reason, but mostly because those governments use most of the monies for themselves and very little for their people.

Also we have some of the highest salaries in the world that even at minimum wage they are making huge money and can live here, with taxpayers supplementing their costs, and still send money back and provide for all of their family members back home. It’s almost as good as the California and Alaska gold rush for them. Can’t fault anyone for trying but let’s do it the legal way and get them set up and paying their share of the taxes and not living off the taxpayers.

[Bigunmc2002]

Lets face it. As long as they keep us argueing eith each other the more both parties can screw us!

[Bluesman]

Try sneaking across a border in Europe or South America and see what happens.

[WellEndowed1911]

Goofy thanks for your very articulate replies even if I disagree you make very strong points defending your position. However, in terms of military spending you didn’t quite give a valid reason why we spend so much more than other countries specifically Russia and China who militarily are our biggest threats. You mention because the US pays the military men and women in dollars and not cents is one of the biggest reasons.
However, by numbers both Russia and China have more manpower and this article states that people who serve in the Russian military are paid better than the average Russian citizen : https://www.google.com/amp/s/russian...itary-pay/amp/ so that defeats that point.
Also, both Russia and China have state of the art weapons such as stealth fighters and I am pretty sure those weapons don’t come cheap. I think the military allows a lot of those contracts to be highly inflated - is there a reason why in 2019 a single stealth fighter cost 1 billion dollars ? The M1 Abram tank although a great tank has suffered damages from RPGs which militarily speaking are inexpensive. IUDs used by both the Taliban and ISIS have shredded Humvees to scrap metal.

[Goofy11]

Thanks Wellendowed.

Russia pays their soldier 62000 rubles a year which equals $917.28 us dollars.

Russia also collapsed trying to keep up with high end military tech. Yes they have some good stuff but they have reduced their investment numbers here to avoid another collapse.

Chinese military expenditure, like all nation states is needed to protect its capitalist class from internal and external threats to its political control of the means of living. Granted China does have the largest military force in the world in terms of numerical strength but this indicates that Chinese policy is not to become involved in a technological arms race to the bottom, like Russia.

Therefore, like all capitalist countries the chinese ruling class weighed up the options of the cost of introducing technology and the costs of labour power in terms of comparative advantage and reached the conclusion its cheaper to have a large military force armed with medium technology rather than the opposite.

Its Defense Budget: $129,272,000,000 when compared against the US Defense Budget: $689,591,000,000 and then calculated against the total military strength (Active Military Personnel: 2,285,000; Labor Force: 795,500,000) totals: 3,080,500 for China and then compared with the US (Active Military Personnel: 1,477,896
Labor Force: 153,600) which totals 1,631,496 illustrates that the costs per head of military personnel is far lower in China.

129272000000 divided by 3080500 = 41,964 per person for China
689591000000 divided by 1631496 = 422,674 per person US

The difference is great technology.

differences in military spending need to be looked at in the context of differences in military mission.

Chinese and Russian investments, modernization, new weapons systems, etc., their R&D — which is all government-owned and also is much cheaper. Also there is no way to get a truly accurate figure for defense spending from authoritarian and highly secretive countries like China and Russia. Also we are unable to factor in whatever those nations do spend on military salaries, health care, pensions and the like. (It is safe to assume it is a vastly smaller percentage than for the Pentagon.)

In general, our inputs cost more than their inputs. But the real issue is that it is misleading to simply compare the U.S. and Russian military budgets — or the U.S. and Chinese military budgets — on a one-to-one basis because we operate globally in a way that none of our adversaries does. Add in the fact that we only play away games — we operate near our competitors’ territories, at the end of our very long supply lines, all of which gives them a major geographic advantage — and we simply need a lot more military power to make our alliances credible and make our influence felt.

To compare our soldiers with Chinese or Russian soldiers (or sailors) is like comparing not apples and oranges but apples and hubcaps. You get what you pay for, and we are spending a lot more — and getting a great (and necessary) value for our money.

https://www.quora.com/How-does-China...y-in-the-world
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.blo...ere-s-the-math
https://www.google.com/search?q=6200...obile&ie=UTF-8

[WellEndowed1911]

Thanks Wellendowed.

Russia pays their soldier 62000 rubles a year which equals $917.28 us dollars.

Russia also collapsed trying to keep up with high end military tech. Yes they have some good stuff but they have reduced their investment numbers here to avoid another collapse.

Chinese military expenditure, like all nation states is needed to protect its capitalist class from internal and external threats to its political control of the means of living. Granted China does have the largest military force in the world in terms of numerical strength but this indicates that Chinese policy is not to become involved in a technological arms race to the bottom, like Russia.

Therefore, like all capitalist countries the chinese ruling class weighed up the options of the cost of introducing technology and the costs of labour power in terms of comparative advantage and reached the conclusion its cheaper to have a large military force armed with medium technology rather than the opposite.

Its Defense Budget: $129,272,000,000 when compared against the US Defense Budget: $689,591,000,000 and then calculated against the total military strength (Active Military Personnel: 2,285,000; Labor Force: 795,500,000) totals: 3,080,500 for China and then compared with the US (Active Military Personnel: 1,477,896
Labor Force: 153,600) which totals 1,631,496 illustrates that the costs per head of military personnel is far lower in China.

129272000000 divided by 3080500 = 41,964 per person for China
689591000000 divided by 1631496 = 422,674 per person US

The difference is great technology.

differences in military spending need to be looked at in the context of differences in military mission.

Chinese and Russian investments, modernization, new weapons systems, etc., their R&D — which is all government-owned and also is much cheaper. Also there is no way to get a truly accurate figure for defense spending from authoritarian and highly secretive countries like China and Russia. Also we are unable to factor in whatever those nations do spend on military salaries, health care, pensions and the like. (It is safe to assume it is a vastly smaller percentage than for the Pentagon.)

In general, our inputs cost more than their inputs. But the real issue is that it is misleading to simply compare the U.S. and Russian military budgets — or the U.S. and Chinese military budgets — on a one-to-one basis because we operate globally in a way that none of our adversaries does. Add in the fact that we only play away games — we operate near our competitors’ territories, at the end of our very long supply lines, all of which gives them a major geographic advantage — and we simply need a lot more military power to make our alliances credible and make our influence felt.

To compare our soldiers with Chinese or Russian soldiers (or sailors) is like comparing not apples and oranges but apples and hubcaps. You get what you pay for, and we are spending a lot more — and getting a great (and necessary) value for our money.

https://www.quora.com/How-does-China...y-in-the-world
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.blo...ere-s-the-math
https://www.google.com/search?q=6200...obile&ie=UTF-8

Thanks for that info Goofy11. However, I have a question for you if you don't mind it's more so related to military. In 1945, the U.S dropped the A-Bomb on japan- every Presidential election we get the talk of stopping rogue nations like N.Korea and/or Iran building a nuke. Of course we know N.Korea has one, but I am trying to fiugure out why more contries don't have nukes. The technology to build a nuke existed let's say in 1945 that's 74 years ago!!!! Surely a 74 year old secret has to be known by now. So am I to believe that any semi-modern country in the world don't have top pyschicist or chemist that know how to build a nuke?
Or is obtaining the materials to build a nuke like enriched uranium more of a challenge than the technology to build a nuke??? Please help me out if you can-thanks in advance.

[Goofy11]

Nukes are very expensive and dangerous to make, but yes all countries I am sure have the people and materials, and possibly the money to make a nuke if they wanted to.

But in a nutshell why they don’t. 190 countries back in 1970, including the US, Russia, UK, France and China have joined the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT). India, Israel and Pakistan never signed the agreement and North Korea left in 2003. The NPT recognises five states having nuclear weapons - US, Russia, France, UK and China - all of which had tested nuclear weapons before the agreement came into effect.

Under the agreement, these countries should not maintain an arsenal forever. And both the US and Russia have significantly reduced their stock pile.

The treaty prohibits non-recognised states from developing nuclear weapons. South Africa, and former Soviet Union countries Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine have all given up theirs.

So with Iran actively trying to build a Nuclear bomb they are in direct violation of this treaty.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0jfv-uvwF14

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-42873633

[WellEndowed1911]

Nukes are very expensive and dangerous to make, but yes all countries I am sure have the people and materials, and possibly the money to make a nuke if they wanted to.

But in a nutshell why they don’t. 190 countries back in 1970, including the US, Russia, UK, France and China have joined the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT). India, Israel and Pakistan never signed the agreement and North Korea left in 2003. The NPT recognises five states having nuclear weapons - US, Russia, France, UK and China - all of which had tested nuclear weapons before the agreement came into effect.

Under the agreement, these countries should not maintain an arsenal forever. And both the US and Russia have significantly reduced their stock pile.

The treaty prohibits non-recognised states from developing nuclear weapons. South Africa, and former Soviet Union countries Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine have all given up theirs.

So with Iran actively trying to build a Nuclear bomb they are in direct violation of this treaty.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0jfv-uvwF14

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-42873633

Thanks so much for that info Goofy11, but I think you left off a country-isn't it a widely know fact that Israel has nukes?

[Precious_b]

Y'all got a pretty good discourse going on here.

[Goofy11]

I believe it is currently 9 countries with nukes at this time with 5 being recognized on the treaty. Beyond that I would not know why the few others have them. Pretty good guess would be Israel got them for self preservation as for some reason all the countries around them want to wipe them from planet. But that is just a guess.

- - - Updated - - -

It is pretty good...thanks Precious_b

[Majesty]

Nice discussion for a Board like this!

I don't think the TV networks should air Trump's border wall speech tomorrow night. I see it as propaganda. 3 weeks ago Trump was ready to sign a CR.. Until Fox and friends decided he should hold firm for wall funding. Then it suddenly turned into a National Crisis, and we are over run with border folks. the Trump people have only one card to play.. The Joker National crisis card. Anyone with sense can see how this is playing out. The wall might be a good policy, but that ideal is buried under a wall of lies and subterfuge

[WellEndowed1911]

Nice discussion for a Board like this!

I don't think the TV networks should air Trump's border wall speech tomorrow night. I see it as propaganda. 3 weeks ago Trump was ready to sign a CR.. Until Fox and friends decided he should hold firm for wall funding. Then it suddenly turned into a National Crisis, and we are over run with border folks. the Trump people have only one card to play.. The Joker National crisis card. Anyone with sense can see how this is playing out. The wall might be a good policy, but that ideal is buried under a wall of lies and subterfuge

Totally agree-tomorrow he's going to say that ISIS, Al-Queada are entering through Mexico and I think the majority of Americans will not buy into his lies. Trump is in a bad position and the longer the government shutdown takes place the worse it is for his administrations because it's affecting people who need their paycheck.
Also, any one with common sense should know that the wall isn't going to be built over night-it's going to take anywhere between 2.5 to 4 years to fully complete-so by logic wouldn't this be a national crisis for the next 2.5 to 4 years? Give me a break!!!!