Clients that want to "Hang Out as Friends", thoughts please

[skittlez]

+1 to DR's comments - and to Universal that recognized same as 'real'...

So... (to be clear) I don't "hang out" with providers, or try to...

butt, I've had times when I've taken a (repeating ATF) gal for pizza after the sesh...

... and taken several to Chinatown (off the clock) for massage and dinner, these activities spontaneously offered and FOLLOWING a sesh

These variances were meant just as friendly, spontaneous, appreciative gestures - extended by me (and graciously accepted by them, post sesh)... REAL

I never expected anything from them as a 'quid pro quo'; butt, I have found that it is a good and beneficial thing to be good (to people)

*********

We have a colleague here on OH2; he's energetic, unique - and a rascal for sure... butt a very good guy as well, especially to the girls...

HE will 'hang out' at times with selective providers - provide libation, entertainment - and counsel... IMHO, that's OK and beneficial for both parties.

HE's NOT the only one. I am aware of several gents that have provider/RW friend relationships of one degree or another.

It is a balance, I'm sure - with proper respect and boundaries required towards both parties.

*********

(minor rant follows)...

It's EZ for a guy, especially a "new-to-all-this" guy, to mistake the IOP for "genuine".

Ladies, you think he's a fool... butt he's just confused - and he will wise up at some point.

It's a credit to your skillz that you can make him feel that way, so attagirl - you done good!

[Big Dick Cheney]

Nah. Keep it professional and move on. I keep it cordial but not looking for a friend because at the end of the day as a man and hobbyist you’re still going to want to hit it, and as a provider she is still going to expect that check. There are plenty of women outside the hobby willing to friend zone guys if that is what you are looking for. Takes little effort to be friend zoned.

[Universal]

Cautionary tale:

I've always seen people trying to date or do things off the clock "as friends" as an attempt to be friends with benefits. After moving to Austin I met someone and let my guard down (my fault) because I was new here and am an empty nester, so I thought to myself that it may be fun to explore the city with this gentleman as friends. Here's the problem, then second you are doing things off the clock because you like someone and then they turn around and start paying for other people's time and not only that ladies are asking you for references, it just leaves a really bad taste in your mouth and leaves you feeling like a complete idiot.

As I said, I do blame myself for letting my heart get the better of me and wanting to be his friend outside the norm, but in my experience it's just a REALLY bad idea. Guys look upon this as a challenge and will do or say anything to pull this off, even throwing around words that should be reserved for someone you truly love.

I've heard from others that it's not the first time he's done this. He's incredibly charming & a super smooth talker and kudos to him for being the first person to pull this off on me, because I consider myself a very good judge of character. If that weren't bad enough, he pulled my P411 vouch for him so that I couldn't warn others there and also I believe that he likely has numerous handles. I feel like this Austin gent may have even gone so far as to put it out there that I'm a flexible person, because since moving to Austin I've had an huge influx of people attempting to do this. One person even said he left his girlfriend for me...uhhh....WHY, I at no point indicated that I wanted to take her place in a real world setting, lol? Then there are the guys young and old who just believe they are God's gift to women and that they can get around almost anything.

I'm a super nice person and am very generous with my time if I feel we are compatible because I genuinely like what I do. My new policy is yes, I do want new friends here and I may be willing to go out for drinks, etc...but once we are back at my place or yours and I am in Chef mode, then I expect to be compensated for that time spent.

I'm not naming him because I'm willing to bet that many will know how I'm talking about. I believe him to be at his core a nice person who I most definitely met at the wrong time.

I have heard many stories from several providers that clients will propose a friendship that turns into an actual monogamous relationship and find out later he was seeing other providers on paid time.
women & men want to be in a exclusive relationship that has feelings involved with a trusted partner but the same thing could happen with a dissatisfied person not getting their sexual needs met as an excuse to go outside the bedroom for sex.
Men have been used by women for material things while he was in pursuit of an intimate relationship. I saw this in college with strippers taking advantage of lonely, divorced men.


Not saying, you aren't meeting is needs BCD, just clarifying the usual excuse they use to see other ladies.
Sorry, you had to go through a misleading relationship Lexie.

[Fallout4]

You guys take this way to seriously. I like to keep it fun and casual. I’ve had drinks with a provider, taken them out to eat after a session, even had one call me to check out a car for her. Just a fun casual hang out no need to overthink things...

[Ms.Athena]

The hobby is about living out your fantasys a hour or 2 at a time. Ive always had special friends or SD in the hobby. They knew the set monthly rate gave them top priority for my time and skills. We always traveled and hung out locally and yes most were married. I never watched the clock it was about enjoying ourselves but I did still have bills and by running off with them I was turning down other clients. I have also had clients that turned into buddys. We may not have matched BCD butt we had a blast as friends. Last but not least clients that just wanna chill and have a drink or meal and join me in flirting with the hot bartender...lol. Even as a nurse I hung out with co workers and patients on my own time.Fuck people. Enjoy life

[Guest 011723-1]

Hell no! I've made that mistake and it's not worth the hassle.

[Guest 011723-1]

It's not healthy, I think Classy is talking about mixing business (escort work)with personal affairs and the end result leads to being used for sex without a true friendship. People can take advantage of someone that is wanting a true friend.
Guys bond with other men and go on fishing trips, help each other with mechanical & building projects but sex isn't part of the friendship, unless it's something similar to the movie, Brokeback Mountain.
Would you stay friends with a man that wanted sex from you and you are a heterosexual male?

Edited for a missing comma

This is what I was referring to with my previous response. He can say he's a friend and when push comes to shove he just disappears. I'm saying that because it happened to me.

[Guest 011723-1]

Cautionary tale:

I've always seen people trying to date or do things off the clock "as friends" as an attempt to be friends with benefits. After moving to Austin I met someone and let my guard down (my fault) because I was new here and am an empty nester, so I thought to myself that it may be fun to explore the city with this gentleman as friends. Here's the problem, then second you are doing things off the clock because you like someone and then they turn around and start paying for other people's time and not only that ladies are asking you for references, it just leaves a really bad taste in your mouth and leaves you feeling like a complete idiot.

As I said, I do blame myself for letting my heart get the better of me and wanting to be his friend outside the norm, but in my experience it's just a REALLY bad idea. Guys look upon this as a challenge and will do or say anything to pull this off, even throwing around words that should be reserved for someone you truly love.

I've heard since from others that it's not the first time he's done this. He's incredibly charming & a super smooth talker and kudos to him for being the first person to pull this off on me, because I consider myself a very good judge of character. If that weren't bad enough, he pulled my P411 vouch for him so that I couldn't warn others there and also I believe that he likely has numerous handles. I feel like this Austin gent may have even gone so far as to put it out there that I'm a flexible person, because since moving to Austin I've had an huge influx of people attempting to do this. One person even said he left his girlfriend for me...uhhh....WHY, I at no point indicated that I wanted to take her place in a real world setting, lol? Then there are the guys young and old who just believe they are God's gift to women and that they can get around almost anything.

I'm a super nice person and am very generous with my time if I feel we are compatible because I genuinely like what I do. My new policy is yes, I do want new friends here and I may be willing to go out for drinks, etc...but once we are back at my place or yours and I am in Chef mode, then I expect to be compensated for that time spent.

I'm not naming him because I'm willing to bet that many will know how I'm talking about. I believe him to be at his core a nice person who I most definitely met at the wrong time.

+1000. Couldn't agree more.

[WW-DEAR_JOHN]

Back when I was very active in the hobby, it was a different day and time. This was back when ASPD was first started and there were a lot of socials. During these socials, it was pretty common that there was a lot of hanky-panky going on. We might be hanging out by the pool and somehow or another end up in some bed. No man or woman was ever forced to attend a social and most men and women knew what was going on. No lady was ever forced to play bouncing bedrooms, it was more like a handful of sexually charged people were coming out of their shells and having some good time at parties. Some lady may be conservative at work, come home and change clothes and become a wild child.

However if you got a 'taste' of what a session would be like, the men were expected to follow up with a paid session. Quid pro quo at it's finest.

Back then I would attend a social at the drop of a hat, however in today's day and time, my level of trust has gone out the window. If I attended a social, I would want some ladies to attend as there were many socials I attended where you met a lady eye to eye, got to talk to her, got to know her a bit, got to see how attractive and how they looked. All of this made a future session for both men and women easier of both. Most of my sessions were after socials, whether we played or not, and there was never a time I had a session with an independent provider without meeting her in the first place at a social.

Like I stated, it was a different day and time.

[mathguy]

MG, I realize you were being devils advocate, but there is one thing that you said that I totally disagree with. A true friend never [B]expects[B] something in return when they do something for a friend. They do it because they want to and no other reason. Of course, it's nice if the other person reciprocates in some way, but it shouldn't be expected. However, if a person keeps helping a friend and nothing is ever reciprocated it can possibly put doubt as to whether they want to continue the friendship. I am pretty sure that id you do something for a friend expecting something in return there is probably a better than even chance that you will be disappointed. However, if you don't expect something in return, then anything you do get will be special.

In the case of a friend doing major repair on a car, if a person thinks that is too much to do as a gift. then that should be discussed ahead of time. It then becomes a barter situation. In this case you're not expecting the friend to reciprocate out of the goodness of their heart.

Fair enough Jag. I appreciate the well thought-out reply. I agree with you about good friends not "expecting" things. I guess what I was trying to point out is that you would never ever get to the stage of "true friend" if there was never any scratching each other's back. Whether it was loaning some money, helping fix their car, listening to their sob stories, consoling them, having drinks with them, seeing a movie with them, playing video games together, playing tennis, going to the gym for a workout, etc...

You see I didn't mean expect as in some kind of monetary or sexual or even immediate return of something of value or pleasure. It's true, I agree totally, that real friendships are not like that. I totally agree. But all of those things I mentioned earlier are still types of pleasures or needs or wants or they fulfill shared interests and so on.

Really what I was trying to say, as much as people don't want to admit it, and I get it, I understand why they don't, even I don't want to accept it, but as a scientist and highly analytical person I simply cannot ignore the evidence or data. We build relationships from some form of give and take. It doesn't mean we "expect" something from them as in quid pro quo (i.e. Latin which means, literally, "something for something"). That's exactly what the hobby exchange of money for sex is, or the exchange of money for product with a merchant. No no. It's not like that. But the simple fact is you would never continue to be friends with someone who didn't give you something back at some point. Whether it was emotional, financial, mental stimulation, spending time with you, giving of their time, sharing interests and participating in them together, etc, etc...

This is why I say the only case where an absolutely and undeniably altruistic relationship exists, with zero conditions attached, ever, is with parent/child.

Sure, we don't like to admit this because we equate this with some sort of "shallowness". It's not shallow. It's just human nature. Look at marriages. We say until death do us part, I'll love them unconditionally, blah blah blah.... but it's not true. Why do we have a nearly 40-50% divorce rate in the US if it were true you could have "truly" unconditional love or friendship for someone? What happened to that "unconditional love" or "respect" or whatever we want to call it? Why do soooo many divorce? Because the dynamics of that friendship changed. One person, or both (mutually), no longer met the needs of the other and they didn't derive enough from the marriage. Remember that a marriage is simply a very intense and romantic friendship/relationship. We always expect something. Even if it's intangible. We all *need* something from our friends. Otherwise you could be friends with and/or marry virtually anyone.

That's all I was trying to say. I get it that it's hard to see it this way because it apparently has a tinge or taste of shallowness attached. It really doesn't though. It's just human nature. I agree with you that real friends don't just expect things in return, not as in, "I did this for so you do this for me". I totally agree with you there bud!

[EccieAddict]

MG are you a moderator here? Cause if you are man I can even fathom what you’re explanation to someone’s as to why they are getting points would be like lmao. That is not meant as an insult either just a little humor :)

[NordicJag]

Fair enough Jag. I appreciate the well thought-out reply. I agree with you about good friends not "expecting" things. I guess what I was trying to point out is that you would never ever get to the stage of "true friend" if there was never any scratching each other's back. Whether it was loaning some money, helping fix their car, listening to their sob stories, consoling them, having drinks with them, seeing a movie with them, playing video games together, playing tennis, going to the gym for a workout, etc...

You see I didn't mean expect as in some kind of monetary or sexual or even immediate return of something of value or pleasure. It's true, I agree totally, that real friendships are not like that. I totally agree. But all of those things I mentioned earlier are still types of pleasures or needs or wants or they fulfill shared interests and so on.

Really what I was trying to say, as much as people don't want to admit it, and I get it, I understand why they don't, even I don't want to accept it, but as a scientist and highly analytical person I simply cannot ignore the evidence or data. We build relationships from some form of give and take. It doesn't mean we "expect" something from them as in quid pro quo (i.e. Latin which means, literally, "something for something"). That's exactly what the hobby exchange of money for sex is, or the exchange of money for product with a merchant. No no. It's not like that. But the simple fact is you would never continue to be friends with someone who didn't give you something back at some point. Whether it was emotional, financial, mental stimulation, spending time with you, giving of their time, sharing interests and participating in them together, etc, etc...

This is why I say the only case where an absolutely and undeniably altruistic relationship exists, with zero conditions attached, ever, is with parent/child.

Sure, we don't like to admit this because we equate this with some sort of "shallowness". It's not shallow. It's just human nature. Look at marriages. We say until death do us part, I'll love them unconditionally, blah blah blah.... but it's not true. Why do we have a nearly 40-50% divorce rate in the US if it were true you could have "truly" unconditional love or friendship for someone? What happened to that "unconditional love" or "respect" or whatever we want to call it? Why do soooo many divorce? Because the dynamics of that friendship changed. One person, or both (mutually), no longer met the needs of the other and they didn't derive enough from the marriage. Remember that a marriage is simply a very intense and romantic friendship/relationship. We always expect something. Even if it's intangible. We all *need* something from our friends. Otherwise you could be friends with and/or marry virtually anyone.

That's all I was trying to say. I get it that it's hard to see it this way because it apparently has a tinge or taste of shallowness attached. It really doesn't though. It's just human nature. I agree with you that real friends don't just expect things in return, not as in, "I did this for so you do this for me". I totally agree with you there bud!

MG,I'm going to say one more thing and then stop hijacking the thread. I pretty much agree with what you say and when I said friend doesn't expect anything in return, I was not quite right. Usually, even if we say we aren't expecting anything in return most of really are. We are expecting to see the joy it brings, or a little tear forming in the corner of the eye, or a big hug. Quite often these are enough.

[mathguy]

MG are you a moderator here? Cause if you are man I can even fathom what you’re explanation to someone’s as to why they are getting points would be like lmao. That is not meant as an insult either just a little humor :)

Hahaha. Nope not a mod. But see... I can make it short. No harm no foul buddy. I get it. Lmao. I get that a lot. I tend to be quite verbose and I probably exude the definition of prolix.

- - - Updated - - -

MG,I'm going to say one more thing and then stop hijacking the thread. I pretty much agree with what you say and when I said friend doesn't expect anything in return, I was not quite right. Usually, even if we say we aren't expecting anything in return most of really are. We are expecting to see the joy it brings, or a little tear forming in the corner of the eye, or a big hug. Quite often these are enough.

Roger that Jag. Appreciate the discourse!
(see, short again EA.... )

[Universal]

Back when I was very active in the hobby, it was a different day and time. This was back when ASPD was first started and there were a lot of socials. During these socials, it was pretty common that there was a lot of hanky-panky going on. We might be hanging out by the pool and somehow or another end up in some bed. No man or woman was ever forced to attend a social and most men and women knew what was going on. No lady was ever forced to play bouncing bedrooms, it was more like a handful of sexually charged people were coming out of their shells and having some good time at parties. Some lady may be conservative at work, come home and change clothes and become a wild child.

However if you got a 'taste' of what a session would be like, the men were expected to follow up with a paid session. Quid pro quo at it's finest.

Back then I would attend a social at the drop of a hat, however in today's day and time, my level of trust has gone out the window. If I attended a social, I would want some ladies to attend as there were many socials I attended where you met a lady eye to eye, got to talk to her, got to know her a bit, got to see how attractive and how they looked. All of this made a future session for both men and women easier of both. Most of my sessions were after socials, whether we played or not, and there was never a time I had a session with an independent provider without meeting her in the first place at a social.

Like I stated, it was a different day and time.

what does social meet & greets have to do with friendship ?
I am missing something.

[WW-DEAR_JOHN]

what does social meet & greets have to do with friendship ?
I am missing something.

Yes.