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Thread: Darkweb rewrite and other information

  1. #1
    Verified Hobbyist BCD mathguy's Avatar
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    Darkweb rewrite and other information

    I'm going to restructure this small essay from my original post b/c I realized after reading peoples thoughts on my other thread that issue that there's much confusion about it, much interest, and it also remains a rather esoteric concept to the general public.

    Before I get into any technical details or other aspects I want to put forth an analogy that will help understand what the darkweb is like in simple laymen vernacular:

    Think of it this way. In a big city you have bad neighborhoods all over the place with high crime and various illegal activities taking place. You could easily wander into one of these places, break down in your car near one, drive through one, or be accosted by someone. That's the rough equivalent to a regular "back alley" website found on the open web or Clearnet" (i.e. the public internet we all use daily; though it *does* have some seedy areas right out in the open for sure).

    Think of the Dark Web more like one of those special clubs you see in the movies, like a place you have to crawl down a sewer hole, or down through some complex maze of doors and alleys until you find a spot where you have to knock, a very ominous looking security person or some access device asks for a code-word. Unless you can supply the code word, along with any other identifying information to prove you are worthy to enter, you are not allowed behind the door. That's how you can think of the Darkweb. That's the darkweb is in very very simple terms. It's not open to the public. You would need to know how to crawl this sewer maze, or through some complex hidden alleys, passages, apartments, etc..., possibly even handing off from one guy to another, being given special directions to the new place, only after giving the correct code-words at each point, in order to finally come to a door that is locked and secured by a gang of thugs with guns. If you finally find that place you still need to be a criminal who knows the proper wording, code word, etc... to get inside. Furthermore, they don't even speak any known dialect. They use a special encrypted form of speaking to each other which sounds like gibberish to anyone who doesn't know the rules. That's the best way to think of the darkweb in super basic laymen terms.

    So what really is the "darkweb"? Many people now equate it with Tor (the onion router). That definitely is the most popular tool used for darknets today but it is not the only one. A darknet, or darkweb, is a network that utilizes the public internet infrastructure, the one we use everyday, to create a highly secure, randomized, encrypted, and node-to-node bounce around the world with no logs left in the routers (typically), before finally arriving at the destination site. This essentially makes the traffic on that network totally anonymous. In order to browse these networks, like Tor, you need special software. Tor is one example. It allows you to get on the Tor (Onion) network and, using their Onion based browser, anything you visit while connected to the Tor network is anonymized in the fashion I just mentioned. You can visit any site too not just "darknet" sites while connected to Tor. This is one way to stay completely anonymous when you browse online. Even when you are going to regular open/public websites but where you might not want your traffic to be known.

    Here are a list of some of the darkweb networks (other than Tor) and their tools (there are a variety of darknet networks though):
    I2P (invisible internet project)
    Freenet
    Decentralized Network 42 (dn42)
    OneSwarm
    Zeronet


    Another feature is that people who want to run illicit businesses on the darknet do not have to register domain names with ICANN. You would not register the name like you normally do when you purchase a domain through GoDaddy for example. Instead you would use the Tor server as the owner of the site using your web server to create what is known as an ".onion" link. What that does is creates a domain name that can only be found on the Tor network and it uses a randomized 16 digit number (though there is an option to "prettify" the name into a regular .onion domain name link). It can only be accessed using Tor (practically speaking.... not going to get into that). The other darknets also have tools for doing similar things as well.

    Customers or users of these darknet sites can use various listing services that give out the onion domains, special browsers with search engines that allow a search feature similar to Google (google and other index bots do not have access to the Tor network or these other darknets). They can also get the links from forums, reddits, etc... The really really bad ones are usually invite only though and you will not find them anywhere online. In fact some are even using software that you won't ever find online. It's done through an extremely tight knit criminal community to keep everything totally anonymous. You will need very special access to reach these sites. These are the places that will be doing really horrible atrocities along with other hard to reach darknet sites. These are also what LEO's are most interested in shutting down with regards to "trafficking". The FOSTA laws were one step toward that b/c many of those markets, as disgusting as they are, were protected by the safe harbors acts. The new federal laws, state laws, etc... allow agencies to go after these awful criminal rings in large force at the source versus just waiting for a tip that so and so exchange or "shipment" (yea you know what I mean - yuck bleh!) is occurring at XYZ port or border and so they go setup a sting. What good does that do against a community like Silk Road, though not disgusting, it was mostly a market for illicit drugs, however when they have 1+ million criminal users?! It does nothing. This is what they were fighting with virtually every community whether it was surface web (open internet), deep web, or the various darknets.

    Not all darknets are doing illegal things. That is true. There are some who just want anonymity. However, the overwhelming and VAST majority are doing illegal things on a regular basis. What is the purpose of wanting anonymity if not b/c you are doing something wrong? Yes, there are some valid reasons, potentially afraid that big brother is getting a bit too big, you just don't want people having your info, or know what you look at, etc... However, >99% of the time? Highly illegal and in many cases of a truly filthy disgusting nature that would make you want to vomit.

    I'm not going to get into the porn vs prostitution discussion in this thread. I'll re-write that in a new post tomorrow likely.

    FINAL THOUGHTS:
    If you are not really technically savvy I would highly advise that you do not play around with the darkweb or any of the various darknets. Most any of those places are on watch lists from the FBI cybercrime division to DOD to Homeland to NSA and so on.
    If you don't know what you are doing then you could get into big trouble. For example, there are ways to inadvertently access a "darkweb" site without connecting to Tor properly and you will be completely in the open without one iota of encryption or Tor node randomizing.
    I'm not even going to hint at how you do it b/c if I do I'm just opening up the possibility that someone will get in trouble. Please listen to me here.
    Another example? When I said you need special browsers? Yes, typically. However, all internet traffic is on port 80 for web servers (HTTP) and port 443 for secure web servers (HTTPS). Chrome, FF, Safari, or *any* browser can do that too. That's what a web browser does. It's just that Tor and those other darknet software services or networks require another special port to forward to. Chrome and the others don't know how to do that natively. The problem is you could muck it up where they can do it, and, again, there are way to access onion links, as well as other darknets, (i.e. "darkweb" links) without utilizing that specific networks encryption protocols. My point? There are ways to get there without using one of those special browsers and without any encryption or router spoofing/masqerading if you are not careful. You could expose yourself and be completely in the open without one ounce of encryption or protection.

    Also, don't think installing or running a virtual machine or live Linux distro or simply reformatting your hard-drive after the fact or any other "clever" little idea will work. Uh uh. All communication over the web happens via packet switched IP datagrams. You could throw your computer/tablet in the fire. It still wouldn't change that your ISP's router log show that the IP address assigned to your homes router at XYZ time was sending data packets to/from "so and so site on the darkweb". Unless you know how to bulletproof your tracks and you are highly technical then don't play around with it. Yes, journalists use it from time to time, investigators, and so on. They are either very skilled themselves, have taken lots of time to study up and understand all the ramifications, OR more likely they have an IT team on standby that sets up environments just for those purposes. Again, fair warning. Don't mess with it. There is highly illegal as well as extremely disturbing content and exchanges taking place on the various darknets around the world.

    One final note regarding the above paragraph:
    Please understand the above is very important. Simply googling things is not the same as understanding them. Integration of knowledge and facts, true understanding, is very different than just looking something up or acquiring a "fact". Yes, we can all google. That does not mean you understand it. For example, anyone can google that the 1NF of database normalization is that each field is atomic in nature. Okay great. What is normalization? What does "each field needs to be atomic" mean? What is a field? What is 1NF? Oh it's a normal form? Ok, what are normal forms?

    Google is an amazing wonderful tool. My point though is that it can also be a double edged sword for the uninitiated. Googling alone is a dangerous thing if you don't have enough background information to support your argument or whatever activity you are attempting to engage in. Unless you are ready to endeavor to learn all about it or you have a wealth of knowledge on a vast array of topics. Researching and doing it well is a learned skill. Do not make the mistake of thinking Google is your researcher (you are). Google is more like your research "assistant". You are the researcher. Yes, the more we know the more we can know even faster, at a geometric pace, which is why you should always strive to learn new things constantly, BUT do not make the mistake of thinking that google is a substitution for true integration of facts, findings, and knowledge or understanding of a given topic area. It absolutely and most profoundly is NOT remotely close. So.... again, tread carefully.
    -MG

  2. #2
    Verified Hobbyist BCD Chencho's Avatar
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    Very informative! Thank you for a great read!
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    The "Guide" In Black ® Mokoa's Avatar
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    Not hobby related.

    Moved to the proper forum.
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    It was my understanding a handful of years back that Tor was demonstrably broken by simply taking control of a node. Once any node hosting particular traffic was isolated that traffic could then all be reassembled. Folks should not presume that Tor routing itself provides anonymity.

    ISPs can also identify and limit, restrict or penalize Tor traffic whether a complaint is filed or not. It is better to just avoid the whole thing altogether.

  5. #5
    Verified Hobbyist BCD mathguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoa View Post
    Not hobby related.

    Moved to the proper forum.
    It is supposed to be hobby related. My original post that was shamefully removed without legitimate reason made that more obvious. I had to write this one very quickly last night and I couldn't structure it the same way :/

    It does relate to and specifically mentions FOSTA and trafficking.

    My point in posting the darkweb topic originally was about how the new story related to a specific darkweb network. And the whole point about *that* was, again, as I've said many times, the feds care most of all about being able to stop these horrible trafficking rings occurring at their source on the darknets around the world. It's basically the entire reason for FOSTA existing in the first place.

    I was not able to structure it the same way though b/c some loser reported it and some mod, I don't know who at this point, shamefully removed it without reading or contacting me. Very disappointing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chencho View Post
    Very informative! Thank you for a great read!
    Thank you Chencho. I appreciate it



    One thing I want to make sure I'm clear on is that just using TOR to be anonymous is not the same as using the darkweb. TOR is one way to stay anonymous online and in some cases better than a VPN. In addition, doing only that is totally fine and more secure than most other things you could do. An example? Well, if you run your own VPN (OpenVPN or using your own NAS device...) you are probably fucked if you don't know what you are doing b/c your public IP is being recorded as it exits your home router with every bit of traffic even though it's technically encrypted. Kind of like wearing a mask at a bank robbery but your getaway car is your personal vehicle registered to you at your home address

    So..... if you use a VPN use a professional service and one outside the US if you really want to stay untraceable. There are many good ones. The darkweb would certainly use many of these tools, however it's typically to access either an "onion" type link, or one of the other versions that other darknets use, to visit highly illegal sites. I definitely don't want to scare people away from the concept of anonymous internet usage. That's not the point here.

    If you just use TOR or VPN to browse regular websites (wikipedia, pornhub, microsoft, various hobby communities, yadda yadda....) then it's all good. No issues. Just don't connect to TOR and start trying to go to back alley forums or subreddits that contain lists of "onion" links or downloading special "darkweb search engine software browsers" while connected to TOR other types of "darknet" links to unscrupulous and very unsavory places on the internet.

    So, again, it *is* perfectly fine to download TOR or use a free VPN (or paid VPN service; though if you want to be private use a prepaid Visa card bought with cash) if all you want to do is browse regular internet sites.
    -MG

  6. #6
    The "Guide" In Black ® Mokoa's Avatar
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    The technical discussion you started is not specifically related to the hobby. It is much more general. So, this thread will remain right where it is.
    "Don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Get the hell out of the race car if you've got feathers on your legs or butt. Put a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up there and eat that candy ass."

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    9/11 Memorial


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    Verified Hobbyist BCD DocHoliday's Avatar
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    I have had my issues with Mokoa in the past but I agree with him on this. It's a very nice technical read on the dark web MG. However, the dark web really has nothing specific to do with this website or the hobby. That does not take away from the informative and educational value of your topic however. Thanks for the nice read MG.
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    Verified Hobbyist BCD mathguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocHoliday View Post
    I have had my issues with Mokoa in the past but I agree with him on this. It's a very nice technical read on the dark web MG. However, the dark web really has nothing specific to do with this website or the hobby. That does not take away from the informative and educational value of your topic however. Thanks for the nice read MG.
    Thanks Doc. Yea, I gotcha. I don't necessarily disagree nor do I really have an issue with it being here. More or less I was pointing it out b/c of what happened initially (original thread that got deleted). I couldn't arrange it the same way and without the news story I just couldn't make my point the same way either. I also had to do it quickly b/c I wanted to get something posted as I'd been promising I would.

    I'm just very very very tired of captious, bitter, idiots that either report posts b/c they disagree with a viewpoint or make inane comments b/c they simply can't read fast enough. That one grates on me like nails on a chalkboard. Thanks though Doc. Appreciate the comment and compliment.
    -MG

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    Alien fear is whack

    Quote Originally Posted by donghead View Post
    It was my understanding a handful of years back that Tor was demonstrably broken by simply taking control of a node. Once any node hosting particular traffic was isolated that traffic could then all be reassembled.

    that's old news and those nodes were removed like five years ago.....
    "Relay Early" Confirmation


    Quote Originally Posted by donghead View Post
    Folks should not presume that Tor routing itself provides anonymity.
    well ya.

    folks should use common sense that TOR isn't fully 100% anonymous, and take necessary
    precautions as with everything else in life......


    Quote Originally Posted by donghead View Post
    It is better to just avoid the whole thing altogether.


    it's best to learn as much information about something to avoid potential risks instead of fearing it altogether





  10. #10
    Verified Hobbyist BCD mathguy's Avatar
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    ^ Very true Phxx ;)

    For everyone else, this is why I bothered to follow up my original post with a reply about how I didn't want to scare people away from simple anonymous internet usage. That's all fine; and in fact useful. It's something you really need to take the time to fully understand before simply jumping in though (particularly if you are going to search for things of a highly questionable nature).

    Anonymous internet using TOR or a proper VPN is fine for most regular web browsing where you simply don't want someone tracking you or knowing what you look at (govt, friends, family, coworkers...). Just make sure you are informed and know that your are actually anonymous.

    One easy method (not fully comprehensive but decent) to check if you have successfully connected & become "anonymous":

    1. Check your public IP address using the web browser. That IP is the IP address that the external world and your ISP are seeing coming from your router.

    2. You can do this by typing in the browser, "what is my IP address", or simply go-to a site like: whatismyip.com

    3. You need to compare that result (that IP) to the usual public IP your router acquires from your ISP. It will typically stay the same for many months or even years. It will also be located in your region/city.

    4. Given the above if you do notice that a "what is my IP" lookup shows an address that says it's in the Netherlands or Singapore or somewhere outside the US then it's a good bet you have successfully acquired an "anonymous" IP.

    At this point anything you browse while connected, so long as you use the proper browser (e.g. you can't use Chrome if using TOR, you have to use the Onion browser) is untraceable to you. That means it's not traceable to the IP/router assignment that your internet provider logs 24/7/365. The reason that matters is b/c what make you "traceable" is the simple fact that a subpoena of your internet providers records will plainly show that you visited xyz site, searched for abc sites, etc at 1-2-3 time.

    There's also no argument or possibility that it's someone else b/c that router is in your home/location. The serial number & the MAC address of the router belong to you, registered to your account, and as such are associated to the address you have on file. Your providers router logs show that you were doing blah blah blah at 1-2-3 time using that router with that IP. That is (more or less) the entirety of what "tracing" something to a person means in terms of actually physically finding the person who was doing whatever they were doing, illegal or otherwise, while they were online. Outside of that you can't really effectively find or trace anyone online (without getting into some complex issues).

    The reason someone won't know where this person is located, or have any clue who they are, is b/c in order to do that you need some way to tie the data packets coming out of their router, or seized from a server receiving those packets, back to their origination which would be a router somewhere in the US assigned to a particular person's internet account. In this case that person lives at, "123 I've Been Found Dr.". Encryption alone won't do anything either. Which is why I said running your own VPN locally is folly. You need to open an encrypted tunnel registered to a good IP network across the pond somewhere which makes it so that no matter what, even without the encryption (though very desired), your IP traffic is not traceable back to *you* (e.g. your home router).

    FYI your cell phone account or using your 4G/5G LTE connection via cell towers is also the same deal as the home router. Same concept. It's no different at at all, it's just a different infrastructure & medium.

    5. To determine your original public IP without having to guess simply go-to whatismyip.com *before* you connect to TOR/VPN. The other option if you're savvy enough is login to your home router. It's usually something like 192.168.1.1 or 192.168.1.0. Login to the router using your admin account. If you don't know it, or never changed it, just look down underneath your router. There is a sticker there with the default admin username and password if you never changed it. One logged in you can go-to the router page that shows your "WAN IP" or "WAN ADDRESS".

    What you are trying to do is make sure that the IP your router normally has as seen by the outside world (public IP your provider assigns to your router) is something different than the usual one, typically it'll be in another country. Again, you'll do these checks by using the "what is my IP" method or this site: whatismyip.com.

    If the results from each (1 check before connecting to TOR/VPN, 1 check just after) are different then you are successfully connected to a foreign network with an IP where none of your traffic can be tracked for the duration that you have TOR or the VPN active and have that foreign IP. You are now "invisible" for all basic intents and purposes.

    This is not at all comprehensive but it's a good way to make sure that your traffic as seen by the outside world does not appear to originate from the IP located with your local internet provider. That IP, the regular public one your provider assigns to your router is the way someone can track your usage and/or physically or logically track *you* down to a specific address and ultimately find you.

    It is also how any agency can find out what you were looking at or searching for at any given time by getting a subpoena for your providers router records and/or the intended receiving server and eventually seizing their records as well to find out what IP addresses were communicating with that web server. Ultimately without using some kind of masquerading or IP spoofing techniques, encryption technology, and/or using TOR or VPN like tools, this type of digging by anyone will lead back to an internet router (+IP addr) located in your home just like your postal mailbox. They can now come knock on your door easily.

    That is very nearly the entirety of what tracing an individual means. However, the details of that and making sure you are completely bulletproof, completely secure, untouchable, untraceable, can get complex. In a nutshell though that is the entirety of it. Tracing it all back to a public IP that was registered to you (which is on file at your internet provider which of course shows your home address, name, etc...). You are now "caught".

    I hope this will help some of the people who are not as technical and at least give some perspective to what it all means to be tracked down or traced to a location while online. If anyone has questions just PM or feel free to ask publicly. Have a great weekend everyone!
    -MG

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