More Bad News on COVID

In another thread in this same forum a hobbyist made the statement regarding COVID, "If you were in bed for 30 minutes, with someone that was infected [with the virus]. Your viral load would be much higher....than if you had a casual contact in a grocery store. Thus your symptoms would be more severe."

That came as a surprise to me, and I checked it out on google. This article seems to support what he's saying:
https://www.medpagetoday.com/infecti.../covid19/88692

So if you catch a droplet of saliva from getting sneezed on in Krogers, you will get a milder case of the virus than if you DFK'd your favorite provider for an hour.

Sobering.

Kind of seems like common sense.

Kinda seems like the covid deniers are winning. If you don't believe in covid, guess what, you are winning. We're living in the world you created. Congratulations.

I’m only doing qv then. Problem solved. Lol. I think fauci said beyond 15 minutes your exposure level really goes up.

Where did he contract the virus ?

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Originally Posted by Amontana

Kinda seems like the covid deniers are winning. If you don't believe in covid, guess what, you are winning. We're living in the world you created. Congratulations.

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who is denying the Chinese Coronavirus exists?

I don’t think folks are denying that Covid19 virus exists. However I do see some pushback against the inconsistency in reporting (stats) and the inconsistency in the overall virus mitigation edicts from multiple sources.

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Originally Posted by sd2011

I don’t think folks are denying that Covid19 virus exists. However I do see some pushback against the inconsistency in reporting (stats) and the inconsistency in the overall virus mitigation edicts from multiple sources.

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^^^^^^
This for sure

Can’t wait to get past this era of COVID19. Just came across the following sobering report from NIH reporting on a potential prize from a COVID19 infection... Erectile Dysfunction

The report states this is an understudied issue, as primary efforts are focused on those (in the ICU’s) needing life saving support.

Stay safe everyone...

Here’s the link for those with the medical knowledge to read this technical report...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...Y5HFyy3OCmRJuc

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Originally Posted by DocHoliday

who is denying the Chinese Coronavirus exists?

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I guess nobody. Not Paris. Not Mathguy. Nobody. Cases are up because tests are up. Doctors are miscounting dead people. Every thing is going fucking great. Let's call the virus names. Maybe that will help.

I just want this shit to be over. We can't even agree that it's happening in the first place and that there are people who deny how deadly the virus is and how to stop it. What's your plan then? Clearly listening to people like me won't fly. What's your plan?

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Originally Posted by Dallasfan

I’m only doing qv then. Problem solved. Lol. I think fauci said beyond 15 minutes your exposure level really goes up.

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This with washing your hands should be safe according to some provider corona logic

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Originally Posted by Amontana

I guess nobody. Not Paris. Not Mathguy. Nobody. Cases are up because tests are up. Doctors are miscounting dead people. Every thing is going fucking great. Let's call the virus names. Maybe that will help.

I just want this shit to be over. We can't even agree that it's happening in the first place and that there are people who deny how deadly the virus is and how to stop it. What's your plan then? Clearly listening to people like me won't fly. What's your plan?

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Montana, I know you were just joking & I don't take offense but I do want to point out that I don't "deny a novel virus exists". Not at all. I have friends working on the genome. I'm intimately aware of the virus structure & its existence.

What I deny is the severity.

Read the The Great Barrington Declaration to see how much support is behind the the same idea I have (i.e. no lockdown, back to normal life, instead use a targeted approach for elderly & at risk individuals).

Current signatory count totals.

The most horrible thing about this COVID situation? You know what the fix is? For it to be "over" as you stated above (I wish for that too). The irony is all that needs to happen is the media needs to stop talking about it constantly. Literally. That's it. No more people will die doing it that way than would anyway BUT we also won't end up killing millions through draconian lockdowns and the resulting fallout (which has already taken massive numbers of lives and many many more in years to come when routine health checks/procedures that didn't get done, all over a frigging cold virus, end up taking someone's life; now *that* IS something to be sad about :sad:).

Eventually a vaccine will be available which will indeed help alleviate issues for those at risk, just like the regular flu vaccine does, but it isn't going to kill people at some phenomenal pace until we get a vaccine. That's ludicrous.

And, yes, the death counts are way off. Why do you think the US count is so high and most others aren't now? Magic? They magically stopped it through superior processes or policy or technology or luck??? Many didn't even lockdown. How do you explain that?

You know how? They didn't, and certainly don't *now*, count all deaths as COVID deaths just b/c a person is positive. A person in the US could die literally wracked with ailments at 85yrs old and if their COVID tests was positive down they go in the +1 death column for COVID Deaths. :/ Totally ridiculous.

The fix? People, especially the news, stop talking about it. Go about your life. If you are elderly or at risk for some reason take some extra precautions. Literally everything else should be the same as it was as we would be fine. You are not going to stop, contain, or delay the virus at this point anyway. It's silly to even try. Wouldn't happen even if every single person wore a mask 24/7 & did everything they were told. And it doesn't matter man. Nearly 1Bn (or more now) already have antibodies. So why worry so much? Its circled the globe already and very very few people die. It *ISN'T* that deadly in relation to other things. It's just not. Some people do die. Sure. I agree with that. Just like they do from the flu and other respiratory illnesses. I do not have any reason to believe (not any colleagues) that the absurd numbers our idiot policy makers (originally lead by that fool Fauci and also Ferguson) instructed by our CDC offices that are being compiled are accurate in the least. They do a test if the person has covid and dies they get added to the covid tally....period. Even when their body is ravaged with other ailments. That's absurd.

The fact is the COVID tally in the US is drastically off the mark. They count *ANYONE* who is covid+ as a covid death. That's total horseshit. And the fact that other countries, not just one or two either, no, all around the world, have nothing even remotely close should clue you into the fact that it's due to a policy decision on how/when you count deaths (it's not a scientific approach in the least; furthermore we don't actually know what causes it in many cases... death that is).

The numbers are absolutely bonkers. The is the biggest farce in US and global history. Hands down. :sad:

I don’t doubt the severity. Know of two cases personally where the person died and one where the person has been in the hospital for a month and is just starting to try to walk again.

It just affects people differently. For some it is mild like the flu. For others, they get hit hard.

The stats of infections vs death matches the rest of the world.

The US has around 20% of the world’s positive cases and around 20% of the world’s death.

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Originally Posted by Dallasfan

The stats of infections vs death matches the rest of the world.

The US has around 20% of the world’s positive cases and around 20% of the world’s death.

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Well, hrmmm, you're equating the 20% positive case rate with the 20% of "supposed deaths". We have a higher positive infection rate b/c we test far more that anyone else.

The issue is we only have 4% of the world population. You need to match infection ratio with population ratio (not death ratio). The vast vast majority of positive cases do not end in death (most don't even have "sickness").

The way you are looking at it you're essentially saying every single 1 positive infection equals exactly 1 death. That's what it means the way you matched up those percentages. They don't align in that way though.

The US is only 4% of the global population yet we "supposedly" have 20%ish of the deaths? Really?

Many of those tallied deaths are *really* either flu, emphysema, copd, kidney/renal disease, heart disease, streptococcus pneumoniae/other pneumonia forms, and we will see that reflected later when official numbers come out.

Those that truly are "excess deaths" at this point in the year, many of them are suicides, starvation, heart disease conditions gone untreated, cancer diagnoses that got put off or delayed, routine procedures that would have saved someone's life, but were caused by the lockdowns & economic fallout.

If it were not for the draconian lockdowns then those excess deaths wouldn't have happened. :sad:

Note: The number of reported positive cases is ridiculously low in the news. We expect the infection has hit nearing 1Billion people at this point globally (e.g. 800Mn to 1Bn people already have antibodies from infection). That's what many seroprevalence studies show us. Obviously the infection rate is higher than news or even CDC reports b/c we don't test every single person. We can't; but that doesn't mean many people we don't/can't test aren't or weren't already infected. So yea there are WAY WAY WAY more than just the silly super low positive reported cases on the nightly news.

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Originally Posted by Amontana

What's your plan then? Clearly listening to people like me won't fly. What's your plan?

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My plan is to keep doing what I’m doing. I think a quote from the former Surgeon General Joycelyn Elders would be appropriate here...”We are all going to die of something sometime.” Besides that, get vaccinated at your first opportunity.

This thread reminds why I don’t come to this board for non-hobby information.

The Journal of the American Medical Association doesn’t seem to agree with much of the “information “ being put out. Nor does Johns Hopkins. I am guessing those are better sources of medical information

Like I said, for the people who deny this is happening (or its severity), you should be happy. You're winning. Remember that.

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Originally Posted by jackjohnson

The Journal of the American Medical Association doesn’t seem to agree with much of the “information “ being put out. Nor does Johns Hopkins. I am guessing those are better sources of medical information

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I definitely agree Jack but with the caveat that the person needs to be able consume the information and arrive at meaningful conclusions. One of the major issues of today's world is that everyone thinks "googling" something is the same thing as complete critical thinking, research, and/or is the easy way to get a scientific answer.

Often for quick super simple and "readily accepted facts" that does end up being true.

However, it's also quite often, particularly in new territory such as the virus, that people simply don't know how to properly research, check their sources, the validity or credibility of the data, cross referencing it, etc etc... or they don't have enough background information for a certain essay or group of essays to provide them enough data to formulate their own unique ideas and truly understand it.

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Originally Posted by mathguy

I definitely agree Jack but with the caveat that the person needs to be able consume the information and arrive at meaningful conclusions. One of the major issues of today's world is that everyone thinks "googling" something is the same thing as complete critical thinking, research, and/or is the easy way to get a scientific answer.

Often for quick super simple and "readily accepted facts" that does end up being true.

However, it's also quite often, particularly in new territory such as the virus, that people simply don't know how to properly research, check their sources, the validity or credibility of the data, cross referencing it, etc etc... or they don't have enough background information for a certain essay or group of essays to provide them enough data to formulate their own unique ideas and truly understand it.

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Just stop. You don't know what you are talking about. People are dying and you aren't helping.

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Originally Posted by Amontana

Like I said, for the people who deny this is happening (or its severity), you should be happy. You're winning. Remember that.

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Hmm. I dunno Amontana. Lots of people are very scared and the scientific academia community is still getting major pushback & backlash. It's admittedly a large group with many tens & hundreds of thousands of people, that espouses for the GBD approach, a targeted approach, letting the lockdown concept & stifled economy giveaway to normalcy again. The idea is to stop the insanity of lockdowns and economic damage, with a targeted approach. The trouble is it still gets massive backlash in mainstream media. I wouldn't call it "winning" exactly.

Now, that said, if you meant it as a facetious comment as in, "well, just look at all the deaths your ilk are causing". Sorta like, "I hope you're happy killing everyone...."?

That would be rather absurd b/c many many many more people are dying every single day of highly preventable diseases, drugs, conditions, lifestyle choices, etc... and yet we never talk about it. The news doesn't do daily counters or tickers and talk about how tragic it was that we lost XXX number of people today.

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Originally Posted by Amontana

Just stop. You don't know what you are talking about. People are dying and you aren't helping.

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I knew you were being facetious before. I knew it. I gave you the benefit of the doubt anyway in the first part.

Why would you even quote this particular piece to tell me to "stop"? That quote has nothing to do with the virus itself.

Stopped by my local Super Target yesterday and it seems like the dipshits are starting to hoard the toilet paper again. Thank god I had a Toto installed.

Qv + mask during seem like good ideas.

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Originally Posted by GreysonTCU

Stopped by my local Super Target yesterday and it seems like the dipshits are starting to hoard the toilet paper again. Thank god I had a Toto installed.

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Lol. Yep. Otherwise you'd be washing the poo in the shower hahaha :giggles: Frigging crazy man :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by DocHoliday

My plan is to keep doing what I’m doing. I think a quote from the former Surgeon General Joycelyn Elders would be appropriate here...”We are all going to die of something sometime.” Besides that, get vaccinated at your first opportunity.

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Good idea Doc :thumb: It's what everyone should be doing. Just going about their life as usual.

It might be prudent if you are very elderly or have some high risk conditions to practice wearing a mask or some distancing but otherwise people just need to go on with their lives.

Until they do our economy simply can't recover and we will continue to have countless millions of kids (globally & nationwide) on the verge of starvation, not getting necessary vaccinations, not getting proper education (current at home educational system is an absolute sad joke :sad:). And all manner of other issues too that are being caused by this fallout.

The fallout caused by the initial lockdowns and *now* the "social fear outlook" form of self-imposed lockdowns (i.e. people won't go to restaurants, clubs, casinos, travel destinations, or even shop at typical levels... so those places can't function normally anyway!) are all causing real & serious systemic health & education issues that make covid fucking so absurdly ridiculous. Not only that but some of those things will be felt for years to come within certain communities, industries, and among certain children and certain illnesses. So messed up. Unbelievable. Smh. :noidea:

You're just now figuring this out? Viral load has a lot to do with how sick you get. My advice is you can stay home and be safe or you can go on living your life. I choose the second. I'm too horny for quarantine.

My two cents, here today, gone tomorrow. My Will is updated. I am not going to live in fear because yet another germ wants to kill me. This planet is made up of countless things that want to kill you. Living in fear of it all, is not living.

k

Lots of conspiracy theorists in this thread. "They are exaggerating the body count." just live life like nothing is happening. Good thing this bunch wasn't around during world war II. People rationed food, women manned factories, people bought war bonds and we went to war. This group just wants queso and pretending that things are normal instead of sacking up to solve the problem. You're winning. Congrats. There were another 2k "made up" dead people today, but you kept doing you. Brave. Nurses are helping treat another 100k made up cases. Keep living your best life though. It's all exaggerated. It takes so much courage to do whatever the fuck you feel like and get a margarita at a 50 percent capacity Tex mex restaurant. So much courage.

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Originally Posted by DocHoliday

My plan is to keep doing what I’m doing. I think a quote from the former Surgeon General Joycelyn Elders would be appropriate here...”We are all going to die of something sometime.” Besides that, get vaccinated at your first opportunity.

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Love the idea of vaccination, but what are the consequences of that going to be? I do not want to be the first to find out.

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Originally Posted by tomcat2

In another thread in this same forum a hobbyist made the statement regarding COVID, "If you were in bed for 30 minutes, with someone that was infected [with the virus]. Your viral load would be much higher....than if you had a casual contact in a grocery store. Thus your symptoms would be more severe."

That came as a surprise to me, and I checked it out on google. This article seems to support what he's saying:
https://www.medpagetoday.com/infecti.../covid19/88692

So if you catch a droplet of saliva from getting sneezed on in Krogers, you will get a milder case of the virus than if you DFK'd your favorite provider for an hour.

Sobering.

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This makes sense to me. Three members of my household got it. All of us had been cautious and routinely following the CDC guidelines regarding masks and social distancing out in public (while avoiding unnecessary trips).

We haven’t been in total isolation, however, so at least some of us got it. The symptoms all turned out to be mild, so maybe the masks, hand washing, etc., did help in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Amontana

Lots of conspiracy theorists in this thread. "They are exaggerating the body count." just live life like nothing is happening. Good thing this bunch wasn't around during world war II. People rationed food, women manned factories, people bought war bonds and we went to war. This group just wants queso and pretending that things are normal instead of sacking up to solve the problem. You're winning. Congrats. There were another 2k "made up" dead people today, but you kept doing you. Brave. Nurses are helping treat another 100k made up cases. Keep living your best life though. It's all exaggerated. It takes so much courage to do whatever the fuck you feel like and get a margarita at a 50 percent capacity Tex mex restaurant. So much courage.

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Tell this family about your nonsense (this is *just* the UK too): Mom with terminal cancer 6mos to live turned away from chemo 3 times and told to prepare her family/kids for death - all due to stupid ass COVID cancellations

She's one of just 25K cancer deaths expected in Britain alone as a result of cancellations caused by COVID:

"Kimberley is one of thousands of Brits who have missed vital operations and medical treatment as a result of the Covid crisis after a government report predicted up to 25,000 deaths would have come in the first six months of the pandemic because of healthcare delays." ^[1]

If you really believe the idiocy that COVID isn't causing massive death in other areas you are really a fool beyond comprehension. This is just in the UK too. And that's just one type of cancer! There are loads of other conditions and issues! Starvation. Financial woes and the depression, suicides, education, socializing for kids, physical education, etc etc.....

The idea that we even can talk about COVID and have made it into a *thing* worthy of discussion is already laughably idiotic and stupid beyond words. Literally.

And, yes, those supposed national US 1800-2000ish COVID deaths are total BS. How is it that countries that didn't even lockdown, didn't invoke much of any policy changes, as well as many quite large countries (i.e. Russia, Germany, etc...) are not experiencing anything? Magic? Lol. Come the fuck on. Open your eyes. Think! :hardhead:

It's b/c they have simply given up, or stopped, trying to 'codify' every single PIC illness (pneumonia-like, influence-like, covid-like = PIC per CDC) as a goddamn COVID-19 death. :rolleyes:

My mom very likely had COVID recently. She is 78. She has adult onset asthma and she has mild COPD. She had a severe temperature, 102.5 iirc, bad dry cough, also a little trouble breathing (though that part wasn't severe). It even worried me to be perfectly honest. It did. It really did. Simply due to her age and comorbid conditions and b/c, yes, it does in fact make certain people ill or even die (though the numbers in the US are ABSURDLY out of whack and complete horseshit b/c they are a combination of "PIC" illnesses per CDC). Guess what? Less than 20hrs later no fever, no cough, no breathing issue. She's fine. That was about 4wks ago.

My dad is mid 70s and has kidney issues (was born with one kidney) and not in the best health overall. Nothing has happened to him. Nothing. This is the first time I've mentioned largely b/c of stygma issues from idjits but fuck it idc now. Nothing happened to me either. Nothing to my kids. Nothing toy ex. Also, my ex has a daycare and a few kids in the past 10days or so had to stop coming in due to the flu (or OMG maybe it was COVID-19!!! :shocked: :rolleyes:). Guess what? My kids are STILL fine. That's all anecdotal to be sure, I realize that, but it's just more pieces of evidence among mountains of solid data that I simply can't reconcile.

Good god man. It's a fucking cold! Yes, it affects some badly. It does. A friend of mine is on a German vaccine research team (one of them anyway). I'm also a scientist. I'm well aware of what it is and what it isn't.

The problem is that it isn't really doing what the news wants you to believe (not put in perspective to other things - not even close). If you want to know why that is (the news issue), yes, there is a theory there too, I can explain it but in a follow-up post b/c I don't want this one getting to be 20 pages long.

This is RIDICULOUS. Read the tens of thousands of scientists, including Nobel winners and preeminent scientists of the 20th century who adamantly support that this is the biggest farce in world medical history bar none.

Read it in the GBD. Read that list of scientists. Read it goddammit! Read the studies! Ugghh! :hardhead:

I can literally list hundreds and thousands of doctors, scientists, and various studies that support that this is totally bullshit and we are wreaking WAY MORE HAVOC by doing what we are doing now than any fucking coronavirus or rhinovirus will ever dream of causing.

Note: Your WW2 arguments were really really odd. A basic red herring or straw man argumentative attack. I doubt you know what those are or that you knew you were committing such errors. I mean before you Google it now of course; even then you don't stand a chance in hell of arguing that topic with me either. IJS.

PSS In my defense, yes, I was a bit of a pompous elitist just above. Sorry. It's b/c this is really starting to annoy me and how badly it's affecting the world when all we have to do is stop "making it an issue" and live life. So yea I took a cheap shot at the end. I admit it. My bad. Sorry. :noidea:

I know a couple in their 60's that got it. Their son in his 30 also got it.
The father and son work together, they were mild cases, cough and fever.
The mother didn't do so good. She was in the hospital almost a month.
After she got out, she was on O2 for a while at home.
No rhyme or reason as to why one got it worse than the others?
I think age, immune system and health issues can make it worse for a person.
My dads good friend was one if the first I knew personally, that died from it.
He was in the hospital on a ventilator for almost 3 weeks before he died.
He never recovered in the least little bit once he caught it.

Germany didn't experience much of anything?

https://scnow.com/business/merkel-ur...2c00dd420.html

got it!

^ First off, that's not what I said. I didn't say X didn't have any problems. You can also find a headline about anything anywhere if you look enough b/c there are lots of scared people. That's the new's fault, social media, herd mentality, and namely about 3-4 scientists who should have their friggin heads lopped off for doing what they did so early ok and causing panic that got out of control - they killed lots of people and it's not COVID at all I'm talking about there. :sad:

-Also, yes, the flu season is really fucking things up around the world now b/c people are going nuts again getting all sorts of PIC illness confused.

However, the main point about that was and always has been the numbers (fatalities and codifying them specifically).

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Originally Posted by mathguy

Tell this family about your nonsense (this is *just* the UK too): Mom with terminal cancer 6mos to live turned away from chemo 3 times and told to prepare her family/kids for death - all due to stupid ass COVID cancellations

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I would use caution when sourcing questionable
outlets such as The Daily Mail, but....

COVID hasn’t stopped the mum from a major surgery
scheduled for next week, and COVID also hasn’t stopped the
mum from fundraising to seek alternative treatment in the USA

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Originally Posted by mathguy

There are loads of other conditions and issues! Starvation. Financial woes and the depression, suicides, education, socializing for kids, physical education, etc etc.....

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USA was having these issues before COVID...
lockdown or not, this pandemic will
continue to intensify these issues....

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Originally Posted by mathguy

Read it in the GBD. Read that list of scientists. Read it goddammit! Read the studies! Ugghh! :hardhead:

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GBD would only cause further harm with its YOLO approach
as it fails to address the following:
- who should be protected or how they can be protected
- it does not mention testing any people outside of
nursing homes
- it does not mention contract tracing
- it does not mention wearing masks
- it does not mention social distancing
- it does not provide any information about how,
for example, low-risk people can get infected
without putting high-risk members of
their household at risk of dying

GBD thinks opponents want to do straight up lockdown,
yet lockdown is just one of the few methods that
scientists recommend for the short term...

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Originally Posted by mathguy

The idea that we even can talk about COVID and have made it into a *thing* worthy of discussion is already laughably idiotic and stupid beyond words. Literally.

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It’s both laughable and dangerous that people such as yourself
have made the GBD into a thing just because a bunch of people
with degrees from prestigious universities say it’s the solution

I’m no scientist, but common sense has me thinking,
”Looks can be deceiving,”when skimming thru the GBD....

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Originally Posted by mathguy

Tons of people, both scientists and other professions or groups of people, agree with me and others like me.

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The three main scientists behind GBD have discussed the GBD on
far-right radio programs that are notorious for featuring
antisemites and Holocaust deniers, they have argued against
the testing of the young and healthy for COVID and
defend Sweden’s ‘herd immunity’ approach to this pandemic...

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Originally Posted by mathguy

My audience is not your lot.

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Your audience can be found here:
r/LockdownSkepticism

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Originally Posted by mathguy

All the Trumpian herd following idiots who only know how to be spoon fed news or political garbage

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You’re supporting a
policy of the Trump administration though

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Originally Posted by mathguy

The problem is that it isn't really doing what the news wants you to believe (not put in perspective to other things - not even close).

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but you sourced a ‘news’ story from The Daily Mail,
a ghastly tabloid notorious for sensationalism o.o

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Originally Posted by mathguy

I'm truly baffled at the irony.

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it’s ironic that folks will support a dangerous theory
just because a bunch of scientists said it’s okay
without researching to find out it’s funded by
right-wing think tank, American Institute
of Economic Research

I'll respond to each item in more detail when I can. This is just a response off the cuff.

Phoenixx you know I've always liked and respected you, but I do think the most dangerous thing here is the alignment of the concept of antilockdown with Trumpian (or typical right wing) politics. It seems like that's what you might have been doing (?). I've said before I don't partisan identify but most would consider me to be a very left wing liberal (given my current utter disdain for trump and the right wing establishment that's not off the mark).

I don't even like the term "anti-lockdown" all that much. I would prefer that some very early whistle blowersl scientists hadn't ever made this into a "thing" became so closely monitored and watched. Because it's really not that dangerous in the grand scheme and in perspective to other things. I agree with you about the Daily Mail to be perfectly honest (generally speaking, yes), but it's still an issue (and you can find plenty of very reputable sources), and I can't really post a preprint or any official peer reviewed studies (that hasn't worked so far in past attempts: either goes over most heads or it gets ignored because it's too long or too difficult).

The one thing I will follow up on when I have time tonight/tomorrow, is the GBD. It's not so much the GBD itself, yes, for these purposes here, it's also the list of scientists you mentioned. Yep. I 100% agree with you it's totally stupid that people agree based only on that data. Yet it IS what a large majority of people listen to unfortunately :/ It's what they do when they listen to the news, CNN, MSNBC, FOX, etc.... constantly.

The problem is the alternate scientific views (not just the GBD, any of them - I *still* haven't signed the GBD once again) are stifled and scientists get aligned with an absurd political ideology that they themselves can't stand (sort of like is happening to me at times where it gets confused that I'm aligned with a right wing agenda; which I utterly cannot stand).

Also, many of those things you mention that are considered "problems" with the GBD (i.e. if you wikipedia it or look in some other places) are not really truly issues and don't really matter all that much. I will touch on each one and explain why later on.

Even though this is not a hobby topic, and thus in Grandma's House,

there remain zero political discussion allowed even in this forum.

closed.