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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (discreetgent @ Mar 20 2009, 05:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>If you believe this, I have a bridge to sell you.Quote:
I can think of one way you might lean Democratic. Democrats are probably more likely to go along with decriminalizing the world of escorts than Republicans[/b]
P.J., that's one of the funniest cartoons I've seen in a long time! Thanks for posting it.
As bungled as the events leading up to the AIG bonuses were, and as outrageous as the whole thing seems, hasn't congress lost all sense of proportion? In the overall scheme of things, and set against the hundreds of billions the administration and congress are set to waste, $165 million of AIG bonuses hardly qualifies as a rounding error. Yet congress is investing large amounts of time and energy in attempts at retribution.
Wouldn't it have been nice if they had devoted this sort of energy and attention to last month's "stimulus bill?" Weighing in at approximately $800 billion, it's almost 5,000 times larger than the AIG bonuses. Yet congressional "leadership" rushed it to a vote before anyone could even read it, let alone debate any of its provisions. Not surprisingly, a large portion of it is a poorly designed, pork-festooned collection of boondoggles and political paybacks.
No wonder people are alarmed at what's going on in Washington.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Edrienne Cole @ Mar 20 2009, 01:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>Quote:
Not to sound trite but the Hitlers of this world don't respond to chit-chat. I don't think anyone really *likes* war, but those with the core values that support a strong military presence understand that sometimes it takes sacrifice to bring peace. Sort of choosing between the lesser of two evils. So that large chunk of middle/poor America splits down the line of core values - those who want a strong military presence and are willing to sacrifice for the safety it provides, and those who just want a handout and social programs galore. Tadum! You have middle/poor America dividing itself into Reps and Dems.[/b]
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance.
Hippocrates (c.460 - 400 BC)
Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.
ohn F. Kennedy (1917 - 1963)
What are the facts? Again and again and again—what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what "the stars foretell," avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable "verdict of history"; what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
Robert Heinlein (1907 - 1988)
I think this guy makes some pretty good points:
http://www.thebigmoney.com/articles/judgme...what-waste-week
Instead of concerning themselves with the most critical issues of the day, our political "leaders" seem intent on spending all their time and energy on minutiae.
In a word: Politics
This is all about politics. Not economics, but simple politics. Don't let the facts get in the way of spin and how it helps one improve their own position.
No, putting on my PhD in Business (yes, I really have one) . . .
Market based economics are the only form that has a proven long term record. Now before everyone jumps in with flame throwers . . . There are very few true free markets. Most have some form of impairment that require some form of regulation to balance. Take the typical you make, I buy marketplace. You have more information than I about what you are selling - is it any good, will it work, will it last, etc. This makes an unbalanced market, hence we have warranties.
The problem we are facing now is when government (the body that enacts regulations to balance markets) lets politics trump their responsibilities. The US Congress is ultimately responsible for regulation as it has the power to enact legislation to "fix" things. And over the past 30 some odd years, it has shown to be less interested in truly "fixing" what ails Americans as changing the rules to make it run in a manner they like - and the they is Congress. There is a simple solution, but none of us have the guts to do it - do not re-elect them. Now I know what you are thinking - my guy is OK, but that other guy is bad. Well, look up tragedy of the commons - it is time for us to act, and do so decisively - turn out 80% of the incumbents in the next election. We deserve better. Not more politics, but better leadership, even if it means we don't get all we want all the time.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CyberProf @ Mar 21 2009, 08:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>Absolutely! And the only thing "worse" than either is combining them! :D Similar to the Lewis Black bit about Democrats & Republicans. He says the only thing WORSE than a Democrat OR a Republican is when these two pricks decide to work together!!Quote:
In a word: Politics
This is all about politics. Not economics, but simple politics. Don't let the facts get in the way of spin and how it helps one improve their own position.[/b]
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CyberProf @ Mar 21 2009, 08:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>I don't know that I agree.. but rather then begin one more pissing contest... I'd simply point out that ALL economic AND political systems are.... wait for it... wait for it... MODELS!!! They are attempts to organize & explain a complex world of interactions & human behavior. They are NOT gospel. They don't have THE right answer for any situation. In many situations, they have no answer at all. All are built on premises & assumptions regarding the universe in which they exist and the type of people that inhabit it. Those can be - at best - incomplete or - at worst - unrealistic.Quote:
No, putting on my PhD in Business (yes, I really have one) . . .
Market based economics are the only form that has a proven long term record. Now before everyone jumps in with flame throwers . . . There are very few true free markets. Most have some form of impairment that require some form of regulation to balance. Take the typical you make, I buy marketplace. You have more information than I about what you are selling - is it any good, will it work, will it last, etc. This makes an unbalanced market, hence we have warranties.[/b]
I don't have a PhD but I have spent a fair amount of time studying economics and politics. The smartest thing I EVER heard I heard the very first day of my very first class. My "Intro to Poly Sci" prof said of the entire discipline, and I quote:
"Never, EVER swallow ANYTHING hook, line & sinker.... nothing I say... nothing anybody else says. ALWAYS question, challenge, and evaluate."
I've tried never to forget that.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CyberProf @ Mar 21 2009, 08:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>:D Which 20% would you keep?????Quote:
The problem we are facing now is when government (the body that enacts regulations to balance markets) lets politics trump their responsibilities. The US Congress is ultimately responsible for regulation as it has the power to enact legislation to "fix" things. And over the past 30 some odd years, it has shown to be less interested in truly "fixing" what ails Americans as changing the rules to make it run in a manner they like - and the they is Congress. There is a simple solution, but none of us have the guts to do it - do not re-elect them. Now I know what you are thinking - my guy is OK, but that other guy is bad. Well, look up tragedy of the commons - it is time for us to act, and do so decisively - turn out 80% of the incumbents in the next election.[/b]
Congress=Bad
MY Congressthing=good
Is not a new reality. It's been around almost a long as Congress itself. The problem with the "vote the bums" out approach is that if your district is the only one that actually does, all you've managed to accomplish is to screw yourselves. Your "new Congressthing" is going to have no juice. Crappy committee assignments. No chance to bring home the "bacon" - let's face it.. that's ALL a depressing large segment of the population wants from their Congressthing.
I think you'd stand a better chance of achieving the goal with a grassroots movement to amend the Constitution in favor of term limits. Now, the problem with term limits is where to set them. Long enough that you don't wind up with a legislative body with no institutional memory. Short enough that you don't wind up with a body full of career legislators. Where's the line? I dunno...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CyberProf @ Mar 21 2009, 08:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>Do we really DESERVE better???? I used to think that. Now, I'm not so sure...Quote:
We deserve better. Not more politics, but better leadership, even if it means we don't get all we want all the time.[/b]
My personal experience with life is that once in a while I get "lucky" or "unlucky" but - most of the time, things happen pretty much as they should.
Our economy's in the crapper. Our political system is inherently wired to maintain the status quo. Our people more readily identify with one or more subunits - be they political, ethnic, religious, cultural, or economic - than they do with the whole. Our educational system turns out "adults" that have no sense of history or world perspective... but a HELL of a lot participation trophies. Yet, we're the greatest country in the world.... nee the HISTORY of the world!!!!
A notion I find more incongruous with each passing day...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sisyphus @ Mar 22 2009, 10:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>I agree that economic theory (actually most academic theory) is not the be all and end all.Quote:
Absolutely! And the only thing "worse" than either is combining them! :D Similar to the Lewis Black bit about Democrats & Republicans. He says the only thing WORSE than a Democrat OR a Republican is when these two pricks decide to work together!!
I don't know that I agree.. but rather then begin one more pissing contest... I'd simply point out that ALL economic AND political systems are.... wait for it... wait for it... MODELS!!! They are attempts to organize & explain a complex world of interactions & human behavior. They are NOT gospel. They don't have THE right answer for any situation. In many situations, they have no answer at all. All are built on premises & assumptions regarding the universe in which they exist and the type of people that inhabit it. Those can be - at best - incomplete or - at worst - unrealistic.
I don't have a PhD but I have spent a fair amount of time studying economics and politics. The smartest thing I EVER heard I heard the very first day of my very first class. My "Intro to Poly Sci" prof said of the entire discipline, and I quote:
"Never, EVER swallow ANYTHING hook, line & sinker.... nothing I say... nothing anybody else says. ALWAYS question, challenge, and evaluate."
I've tried never to forget that.
:D Which 20% would you keep?????
Congress=Bad
MY Congressthing=good
Is not a new reality. It's been around almost a long as Congress itself. The problem with the "vote the bums" out approach is that if your district is the only one that actually does, all you've managed to accomplish is to screw yourselves. Your "new Congressthing" is going to have no juice. Crappy committee assignments. No chance to bring home the "bacon" - let's face it.. that's ALL a depressing large segment of the population wants from their Congressthing.
I think you'd stand a better chance of achieving the goal with a grassroots movement to amend the Constitution in favor of term limits. Now, the problem with term limits is where to set them. Long enough that you don't wind up with a legislative body with no institutional memory. Short enough that you don't wind up with a body full of career legislators. Where's the line? I dunno...
Do we really DESERVE better???? I used to think that. Now, I'm not so sure...
My personal experience with life is that once in a while I get "lucky" or "unlucky" but - most of the time, things happen pretty much as they should.
Our economy's in the crapper. Our political system is inherently wired to maintain the status quo. Our people more readily identify with one or more subunits - be they political, ethnic, religious, cultural, or economic - than they do with the whole. Our educational system turns out "adults" that have no sense of history or world perspective... but a HELL of a lot participation trophies. Yet, we're the greatest country in the world.... nee the HISTORY of the world!!!!
A notion I find more incongruous with each passing day...[/b]
I'm not sure that they (theories that is) are even an attempt to explain things.
The higher the level I studied at, the more I became convinced that theory is just a starting point. It's a starting place to focus and from which to digress or build upon. That makes academic theory important..because any journey you take, has to have a beginning.
The problem is that people tend to want to be pro or anti theory...and that is rarely the intention of an academic.
The theory is there to stimulate you and make you think and be passionate about your beliefs and find the ability to arm yourself with evidence to support your ideas. There were very few models, concepts, theories in either my undergrad or masters that I embraced wholeheartedly...and it certainly wasn't because I thought I had the answers...it was because I knew if it was that black and white it would be implemented efficiently and effectively.
As a marketing gal, I always used to joke that the hardest thing to market would be America.
Now before you all jump on me and thrash me....it's because this country is a complex market of consumers.
America is the great melting pot of the World. State policy differs, cultures differ, ideals differ and probably more so in this country than anywhere else in the World due to the sheer number of people here and the differences from state to state. Gaining a strong majoraty for anything in this country is fraught with complications for all those reasons. America is a collective of very different states that join to form one country...sort of like the intent of the Euopean Union. The EU struggles like hell to make any agreeable decisions and they are supposed to be aligned socially, politically and economically. It's bullshit trying to combine the cultural pathways (many of which are steeped in deep tradtion and values) to form a union...and to some extent I do feel that same struggle here. I think (and just my opinion) that having state laws and federal laws fragment this country rather than unify it. I don't see a greater purpose in doing this. It seems to create small communities (states) that have little connection with other communities (states)...how can that be good for anyone? I don't have any answers and I dont even see a best fit....I'm guessing I'm just sharing thoughts which are probably irrelevent anyway....
C
In general, term limits for legislators are the stupidest idea that's come out of the political process in this country. (And that's saying something.)
The legislators are supposed to be working for us citizens. How well would your company work if you told your employees, "You are in a position of great power in the company. I can't fire you unless I catch you committing a serious crime. At the end of two (or 6) years, I'm going to fire you no matter how good or bad your performance has been."
Term limits mean that there is no incentive for good behaviour or punishment for bad behaviour in a legislator's last term.
Geez. These firms have hundreds of billions of our tax dollars that they have borrowed. If the firms go down the tubes we don't get repaid.
The people working at top positions will make a big difference in whether the firms make it.
Suppose you're a smart Wall Street executive, trader, or finance guy who can make a big difference in the profitability of a company. Are you going to be willing to work at AIG or one of the other companies that owe us billions? If you're currently working at AIG, are you going to stay there, or are you going to take an offer from one of the other companies that want to hire you and aren't taking bailout money? When you work at a non-bailout company, aren't you going to be doing all you can to attract business to your firm at the expense of AIG?
Might you just skip the US altogether and work in London or the Far East?
There's also the claim that the bonuses are going to the guys who screwed things up. Do you know that? It's said that it was mostly CDSs or Credit Default Swaps that brought down AIG. Maybe 10% of the bonus recipients were involved in those decisions. I think AIG stopped writing CDSs in 2005, but couldn't get out of the contracts. How many of these bonus recipients were part of CDSs in 2005? How many of the people getting bonuses made big money in their own areas while the CDSs brought AIG down?
Folks, the "guilty" parties got their big bonuses years ago when the bad decisions where made and the boom was in full swing. Going after the current bonuses just cripples the ability of the companies to operate now and repay their government loans.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gneissguy @ Mar 22 2009, 02:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>You miss the point entirely. Holding office should not be a career. That is the problem. The Barney Franks of the world that have never held a real job in their lives are the problem.Quote:
In general, term limits for legislators are the stupidest idea that's come out of the political process in this country. (And that's saying something.)
The legislators are supposed to be working for us citizens. How well would your company work if you told your employees, "You are in a position of great power in the company. I can't fire you unless I catch you committing a serious crime. At the end of two (or 6) years, I'm going to fire you no matter how good or bad your performance has been."
Term limits mean that there is no incentive for good behaviour or punishment for bad behaviour in a legislator's last term.[/b]
I would agree with you if the Congress was General Electric or Procter & Gamble but it isn't!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (atlcomedy @ Mar 22 2009, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>The Barney Franks of this world would be even more corrupt, stupid, or just arrogantly pursuing their own agenda if they knew their gravy train was going to end at the end of their current term due to term limits. They'd be in a powerful job with no "performance review" at the end of the term.Quote:
You miss the point entirely. Holding office should not be a career. That is the problem. The Barney Franks of the world that have never held a real job in their lives are the problem.[/b]
The only way these guys are answerable to the public is by having to stand for reelection.
You'd also have a melee of new political unknowns with no public service history running for election every election cycle.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gneissguy @ Mar 22 2009, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>Debating this with you is pointless....Quote:
The Barney Franks of this world would be even more corrupt, stupid, or just arrogantly pursuing their own agenda if they knew their gravy train was going to end at the end of their current term due to term limits. They'd be in a powerful job with no "performance review" at the end of the term.
The only way these guys are answerable to the public is by having to stand for reelection.
You'd also have a melee of new political unknowns with no public service history running for election every election cycle.[/b]
I want political unknowns....good people with a history of success and good judgement from the private sector coming in an serving their community or country and then cycling back to a private sector role....
You can have Barney Frank....
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gneissguy @ Mar 22 2009, 01:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>"aint nothing good going on in England right now.Quote:
Might you just skip the US altogether and work in London ?[/b]
The IMF got one thing right when they released their "bulletin" pre-president elect in '08, "The World is in a recession and England will bear the brunt of it."
I'm watching it crumble from here...I hear the bricks falling :unsure:
C
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gneissguy @ Mar 22 2009, 02:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>Term limits are an attempt by the populace to take the elections back from the political class, who consider safe districts their god given right. A better idea is geographically contiguous congressional districts (preferably set by courts) that follow natural terrain or existing political boundaries. These 90+% safe red/blue districts are the primary reason that the House is such a clown act (the Senate is only marginally better) where there is no need for compromise or looking at issues from a broader perspective.Quote:
In general, term limits for legislators are the stupidest idea that's come out of the political process in this country. (And that's saying something.)
The legislators are supposed to be working for us citizens. How well would your company work if you told your employees, "You are in a position of great power in the company. I can't fire you unless I catch you committing a serious crime. At the end of two (or 6) years, I'm going to fire you no matter how good or bad your performance has been."
Term limits mean that there is no incentive for good behaviour or punishment for bad behaviour in a legislator's last term.[/b]
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pjorourke @ Mar 22 2009, 06:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>I think that's part of it. I would also like to see a return to the time when the legislative session - and the compensation for serving - were more commensurate with legislator being a PART TIME job... not a professional career.Quote:
Term limits are an attempt by the populace to take the elections back from the political class, who consider safe districts their god given right. A better idea is geographically contiguous congressional districts (preferably set by courts) that follow natural terrain or existing political boundaries. These 90+% safe red/blue districts are the primary reason that the House is such a clown act (the Senate is only marginally better) where there is no need for compromise or looking at issues from a broader perspective.[/b]
It's a pipe dream, I know... But I really would like to see Congressmen function the way they were intended to function.
1. Go to Washington
2. Pass the bills.
3. Go HOME
4. GET BACK TO YOUR REAL JOB
Somewhere along the way holding office became the ends rather than the means...